Tell me again why people like NGC

You are more generous than I am Doug. I hear what you are saying, but remember well TPG stating unequivically that they would NEVER grade modern coins, they would NEVER assign a grade of 70, etc. I didn't see a huge outpouring of demand for "First Strike" garbage, or the latest (S) mint bullion, but the TPG supply them.

Yes, collectors demand some, but the TPG are also looking out for themselves to increase their market for more "collectible" coins. Home shopping channels have never been so happy.

 

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Don't forget PCGS saying they would NEVER put a problem coin in a PCGS slab.

I think "never" in the TPG dictionary means "Something that will not happen until revenues fall."

 

Sorry doubled post

 

Ancients are totally cool, but wow they really take you on a learning curve though. And I believe no grading company is currently situated to offer authentication and grading on a scale that would be possible with say modern USA coins - the dynamics of ancients are much more variable. Crazily enough my experience with ancients is largely focused on one particular region - where I have lived myself and visited some of the ancient sites - and a part of the ancient world largely ignored by most ancient collectors.

 

TPGs would not be in business but for the lascivious customers that dutifully send them their coins like clockwork. Frankly I couldn't give a rat's hiney what someone else in a stuffy windowless office thinks of my coins. I have never sent coins for grading and likely never will.

So they are obviously market driven. One does ponder though, are they representative of truly passionate collectors or are they catering to speculators?

 

But I don't think one can entirely ignore the marketing aspect, Doug. In other words, which came first, the marketing or the market demand? To that end, I think we all realize, market demand follows marketing. In fact, that's the whole point of marketing, to create and drive market demand. Take a case in point on how that's done with what's going on at present with these so-called "wavy steps" and "die trails." Before that, have you ever heard of anybody demanding these arcane things?

In a way, the question is indeed like asking, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" It's not an easy question with a clear-cut answer. But, if one were to look closely at what they're doing over at PCGS, continuing to ban members, there, who, in a manner of speaking, rock their marketing boat, it does cause one to wonder just how much of this market demand is indeed from the market, and how much of it's, rather, in the first instance, marketing-created and driven.

 

First not having read all the responses - I personally think NGC does not grade copper as well as PCGS. As for the two coins posted I think NGC overgraded it and the ANACs coin is a details coin. At the same time all of the tpgs make mistakes any grading coins. That is why it is up to the buyer to educate themselves. I have bough tpg graded coins, cracked them and listed them at a lower grade in my software. That was my opinion on the grade, does not make me right, but what I think of the coin.

 

Mark, great post of course.

One thing that always bothered me about slabs is this exact thought, (even though its correct). If the TPG is just an opinion, what IS the purpose of a slab? Think of it this way:

TPG adds a great deal of costs to coin collecting

What does "the hobby" get in return? Are the grades always truthful? No. Can a beginner safely buy based upon the slab? No. Can you rely on what is on the slab for identification? No.

What does the tens of millions a year paid to TPG buy "the hobby"? Protection from blatant dealer fleecing of beginners and MAYBE protection from forgeries. What is the downside? Common high grade "rarities" people buy at inflated prices on HSN, overreliance on someone else and lack of acquired grading skills, abilities of dealers to sell "rare" high grade common coins, "first strike" bs.

Is that really worth all of the millions taken out of the hobby every year? Thats just my take.

 

This entire thing kinda ****ed me off. (I can say that can;t I?) Primarily because Attribution AND/OR Grade Guarantee submissions are $27 a pop!

My particular submission is supposedly sitting on someone's desk (Ah hem David Hall) awaiting approval on something and its been there since 6/27.
The attribution was questioned by one of the IKE Group forum members since the DDO-008 is very closely related to the DDO-009, DDO-010, and DDO-011.

The Grade Guarantee's are below:

 

I understand the sentiment but I think it's a little extreme. Do you see no real benefits to having respectable TPG's?

Before TPG's newer collectors had no way of knowing if the seller's coin was altered, cleaned, colored, tooled or counterfeit. Or even if the seller's opinion on the grade and his valuation were correct. Today they stand an excellent chance of getting a correctly graded coin and, to some extent, even determining its market value.

Sure, the TPG's make some mistakes. If they're even 99.9% correct that .1% error results in 2,000 mistakes each year at PCGS. But odds are very high the correct call has been made. And if it hasn't, there's a real guarantee to fall back on.

It's my opinion that this hobby has been held together because of the TPG's and it is safer for beginners. It's not perfect but it's a far cry from what we had 30 or 40 years ago.
Lance.

 

Lance, I know I am a hard case. I liked the hobby 30 years ago personally.

If there were "guarantees" that could be relied on that would make a difference. What guarantee is there? Against forgery is all really. The grade is their own grading system, so they can have it say whatever they like. They do not guarantee it matches ANA standards at all. AT is hit or miss, and since its almost impossible to prove is completely subjective. Only provable doctored coins, or genuineness do I see as concrete guarantees that TPG can be relied on for. Anything else is very dependent on the TPG's mood.

I do see how a guarantee against forgery is valuable, and if not a guarantee at least an estimate of the grade is helpful for beginners. But is it really beginners this service is catered to? I see most slabs being owned by experienced collectors, and most coins being sent in by dealers.

I will give you your points completely, and if the TPG would have done as they said from the beginning I would not dislike it so much. With the promotion of "first strikes", (s) mints, modern MS 70's, and the like I feel they have shown themselves for what they are, simply another group of businessmen trying to find another "angle" on coin colelcting and made some money at our expense.

 

Conder, it may be improper to call a coin a "double die", but I don't think it should have any bearing on a post. LOL!

Chris

 

Chris, I thought at first you said a double lie.

Yeah, that would fit in here with coin collectors! I find coin collectors are a lot like fishermen....."I swear, I almost bought it and it would have graded MS68 MINIMUM!"

Chris

 

I've been trying to keep my 2c out of this discussion. There are some people who like PCGS, some who like NGC, some who hate one or the other or even all grading services. These companies would not have been created if there wasn't a consumer demand for them, and I don't believe they control the market. As Doug said earlier, it is the consumer who determines their direction, to a point.

With all that, I can't help but wonder what the hobby would be like today if there were no grading services and the "pre-Sheldon Scale" of grading were still used today in our internet-based collecting habits. Given the way crooked sellers on eBay are trying to foist problem and counterfeit coins onto uneducated buyers, maybe it would be better if we go back even further in time.......to the days of the lynch mobs.

Chris

 

Heh, funny, it doesnt stop counterfeits much. Afterall, there is fake PCGS slabs with fakes coins in them too

 

<<With all that, I can't help but wonder what the hobby would be like today if there were no grading services and the "pre-Sheldon Scale" of grading were still used today in our internet-based collecting habits.>>

I for one left the hobby for many years of after continously getting over graded and cleaned coins at BU prices. And if it were not for the grading services I might of only collected mint products to this day. BTW most of those mint and proof sets went out at auction last year and I lost money on most of them.

BTW I don't buy NGC slabs just because I con't like their white holder. But I do drink a lot of lemonade.

 

Haha! I like lemonade, too, but it is probably a different brand.

Chris

 

If I am too opinionated I apologize. I just think about all of the "new" stuff they have done in the last 10 years and that is what boils my blood, (modern 70's, first strikes, and the like). I wasn't as anti-slab when they first appeared, and I actually bought some 65's when they crashed in the early 90's, (2 for $100 not a bad deal).

Btw Chris, I like lemonade too. My friend Mike makes lots of tasty lemonade that I enjoy from time to time.

 

All very good points and something to think about. I think the two biggies are worth it in most cases - but I do agree you have to know your stuff to know if they got it right. Do I dislike some of the things they do - yes, but overall I think there is a benefit. I never really got into the graded moderns except for silver eagles - but I got out of that. I wonder what people will think in 100 years on these graded moderns?

 

You needn't apologize for anything. I dislike the references to First Strikes, Early Releases, etc., and I can even go further to add Full Head, Full Steps, Full Bands, Full Torch and the like. It's all marketing BS as far as I'm concerned.

The only problem I have with the modern 70's is the people who think they must have the best, but they can't tell the difference between a 69 and a 70. It's a good feeling to be searching your sets and come across that one coin that doesn't have a single flaw. Sure, there are those who will submit it for grading so they can sell it at a ridiculous premium to one of the aforementioned "collectors", but me, I have just two 70's that I submitted from sets and I don't have any plans to sell them.

Chris