Tell me again why people like NGC

Just a quick rant about coin grading and NGC in particular. I don't like the grading companies, I think they basically help dealers move inventory amongst themselves by making the coins pretty much fungible assets. This is their primary benefit and I am not a dealer, so it does not help me much. Whatever, it's not a huge problem, but then I see these two coins:

Anac 30:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1845-Large-Cent-Braided-Hair-ANACS-VF-30-/120741631287?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item1c1cc31537

NGC 30:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1845-BRAIDED-HAIR-LARGE-CENT-NGC-VF-30-BN-/180695370341?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item2a12488a65

The Anac 30 is a good solid vf30, the NGC 30 is barely passable as an F15. If the companies are this far apart in grading coins the whole notion of slabbing for fungibility goes out the window. I recently bought 4 rare large cent varieties, and every single one of them was massively overgraded by NGC, but I just thought they were market grading for the rarity. But the NGC coin linked here is not a rarity, only N7 1845 is rare and this is not an N7, it's just a vastly overgraded common variety 1845, what gives?

The second issue I have with NGC in particular is they do not guarantee their variety attributions. I made the mistake of buying a very rare (R6) 1851 N36 in vf25 condition attributed by NGC, which I could not see before purchase. The coin turned out to be very clearly misattributed as an N9... NGC would not do a thing, fortunately the dealer took it back, but come on. Guarantee is the 'G' in NGC and you won't stand behind your variety attribution, and then you grade like in the example above.

To my mind NGC has lost it's status as one of the top tier grading companies.

 

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They charge enough for the attribution, so they should guarantee it.

 

I agree, the NGC coin looks like a F to me, so I'd only pay F money for it if buying. This is why you've heard it a million times before about buy the coin not the slab. If you use your own grading techniques on a consistent basis you'll never worry about TPG's again.
Guy

 

I was just thinking about TPG's before I saw your post--what a brilliant racket it is, & how NGC & PCGS have come to almost control the rare coin industry. However, any coin now over $200, or even less, I'll only buy in an NGC or PCGS slab or maybe ANACS.

I just got back my first submissions to PCGS--that "collector's club" scam, er, I mean deal, they have. After I got my 8 coins back, & saw the low grades, non-grades (genuine, or bb), I felt like the proverbial "only woman on a pirate's ship", & like I'd almost wasted the almost $300 I'd spent (inc. expensive shipping both ways).

I just bought a US commem. in an NGC slab. Nice coin, I'd say well within 1 MS point of the the real grade, but probably spot on IMO. The slab looks crummy tho, the seams look poorly done, & the NGC slabs are prone to scratching. The PCGS slabs are much higher quality IMO.

It's kind of nuts when people get obsessed with plastic slabs, but obviously I'm doing it too. I know the reasons, I don't want to buy a raw coin that if I submit will get a genuine (non)-grade, or bb.......PS, don't forget, you can sometimes buy undergraded coins in TPG slabs too.....

 

Buy the coin.
That said, buying on the internet doesn't always afford detailed views of the coin. "In general", you'll be better off buying those hard to grade by picture NGC and PCGS coins over other tpg graded coins. However I do have my fair share of ANACS coins, especially those in the older holders... also have a lot of SEGS & PCI's that had good pictures, where purchased at discount, and would likely upgrade in NGC or PCGS, but these are common date coins. Much much much harder to find key date coins in these 2nd tier holders that would upgrade in a 1st tier tpg. I have couple that have a good shot at passing over in the same grade, but even that is a close call.

Ultimately it's about consistency. I find NGC to be very consistent in grading roughly +1 to my personnal grading, and I can base my offerings based on that pretty confidently... and like them for that consistency. PCGS tends to be more conservative and inconsistent vs. my personnal grading, maybe +.3 to +.5 overall,, so they are harder for me to price without seeing the coin in hand. I really like old holder ANACS coins and find them to be in line with PCGS grades.. newer holder ANACS, dunno. The SEGS and PCI, etc.., are generally more variable, which is both good and bad. Good for scoring a deal at discount (generally for common dates), and bad for generally pushing key dates to +1.5 or more vs. my grading, and sometimes grading a problem coin that would get bagged at a 1st tier....

I like slabbed coins more than raw. My raw coppers do present more environmental exposure than my slabbed coppers...

 

A few points...and apologizing in advance for my blunt response, but I think you need to hear it....

o It's not NGC's fault that you can't see a coin to confirm attribution -- stop looking to others to blame your own shortcomings on.

o The ANACS coin appears to be recolored and silently net graded for it.

o ANACS doesn't guarantee their attributions either. Neither does PCGS. It is not a secret.

o If you think that NGC coin is a 15, I think you have quite a bit to learn about TPG grading. VF 30 sounds about right for the NGC coin. Perhaps 25.

o NGC is far more consistent than (the new) ANACS when it come to grading copper.

o Comparing eBay photos and making judgments about relative grades is a fool's game.

o No TPGs market grade for variety rarity.

o Why anyone would slab a $60 coin is beyond me.

o Both coins stink.

BOTTOM LINE: If you trust a TPG to get a grade/value/attribution right, you are setting yourself up for failure. The only person's opinion that counts is your own (and possibly whoever you hope to sell the coin to, if/when that time comes), and all of us should become self-sufficient in this regard. Otherwise we need to be prepared for the fallout and recognize it was our own shortcomings that precipitated it.

Again, I apologize if some of the above is rather blunt, but I think it is important to temper your observations with my own as a third party who also collects copper with earnest and doesn't see things quite the way you do.

Respectfully...>Mike

 

While I agree with your whine about NGC not Guaranteeing their attributions I strongly disagree with your whine about NGC and/or TPG's in general since it has absolutely zero basis. After all, you're comparing photographs of one TPG against the other aren't you?

Now if you were to compare "your" opinion of a VF30 1845 Cent against one of the TPG's then you just might have some basis for a whine!

But wait..........you're a collector and not a TPG so it wouldn't count any way. Your VF30 would simply be your opinion which folks may or may not agree with. I think it would depend solely upon what price you were asking.

As for TPG's controlling the Rare Coin Market! Absolutely correct since before the advent of TPG's, it was simply one dealers opinion against the others with no financial redress. THIS is the basis for ALL TPG's. Slabbing a coin based upon the consensus opinion of the TPG's professional graders. No more and no less. It's the COLLECTOR's of the world combined with the Internet availability of dang near any coin that has "enabled" the TPG's to control the market.

Not YOUR opinion nor MY opinion nor anybody else's opinion.

If you are looking for attribution guarantee's then stick with PCGS because they do guarantee their attributions with cash. It may not be what you feel is ENOUGH cash but it's better than zero cash.

Folks are certainly entitled to their opinions regarding this TPG or that TPG but for each distressing situation that exists with one TPG, the exact same scenario exists with the other.

For example, I recently purchased a 1966 Kennedy Half that ANACS had attributed as an FS-013.8 DDO.
Was if correct? No?
Did I get financial recourse? No.
Was I stuck? Yes?

I also purchased a 1971-S Eisenhower that was attributed as a DDO FS-015.8 and paid some stiff money for it?
PCGS Crossed it as an FS-103.
Was it correctly attributed as an FS-015.8? No.
Did PCGS accept the ANACS attribution? Yes?
Did PCGS attribute it as an FS-103? Yes.
Did I find out after the fact that it wasn't really an FS-103? Yes.
Will PCGS compensate me? Hopefully yes but the coin has been sitting at PCGS since 3/31/2011 waiting on a decision.

So. My advice is this:

1. If you want to play the slab game (buying slabs that are professionally graded and/or attributed) then understand what it really is and do not be disappointed if its not what YOU and a bunch of other folks (PROFESSIONALS) "thought" it was.

2. Understand what guarantees a grading company will and will NOT cover "before" committing financial resources to a coin.

3. Never, ever grade a coin based upon a photograph in an eBay auction or an online venue.

4. Never, ever compare two photographs from some online venue and emphatically state that one is correctly graded while the other is not since that opinion could ONLY be made with the coin in hand. Photographs can be deceptive since they are two dimensional and in no way represent what a coin "actually" looks like. They represent what the seller "wants" the coin to look like.

Of course, none of what I've typed matters anyway since there are always going to be folks that aren't pleased with this or pleased with that and they simply need a place to vent their frustrations. I do it myself.

Hopefully folks will not be too critical of NGC over this incident. Or ANACS. Or PCGS. Or any other TPG. All they are doing if tendering their profession opinion upon a coin which can differ widely from one person to the next.

Now continue venting. It's good for the soul.

 

Mike, PCGS does in fact guarantee their variety attributions.

See this web page http://www.pcgs.com/VarietyFAQ.html

 

I understand the OPs point but I think it is a touch off track. I am constantly submitting raw coins to PCGS and NGC and organizing and shipping the orders is one way I contribute at my friends coin shop. I have found over time that the more raw coins we submit the more consistent my grading ability gets. Before coins go out I photograph them and make notes on what I think they grade and ship them out. without fail I get some wrong but usually there is a silver lining. I certainly know the feeling of a BB coin but it is usually something I missed and sometimes a coin has a higher grade than I thought, but that is just the game we play. If I don't agree with the grade, I might take a shot and crack it out or send it in for a review which I have had success at. Let me say that there is not a coin out there I wouldn't want to see in a slab. We organize groups that we feel each service is accurate at, such as all copper goes to NGC, or bulk submissions to NGC and DMPLs go to PCGS etc.

Let me just say as an observation, that when I attended the Summer Seminar for intermediate grading for US coins, we only used NGC and PCGS graded coins. We didn't grade one raw coin. Each coin group had stickers over the date and were recorded then reviewed with the class instructors. Bottom line is there are variables in each service. Its called "tuition" when it costs money to learn. Don't get frustrated. The reality is that this is the coin world today and weather you like it or not it pays to buy into the grading program. JMO

 

I totally agree with the "buy the coin, not the slab" philosophy. I have seen some bad grading jobs with all 3rd party grading companies including PCGS (they screw up too sometimes).

All the coins below were NGC graded and I am very happy with them. Not buying them because I didn't like the company that graded them would have been sort of dumb (IMO).

 

It is NGC's fault if they do not attribute the coin correctly. The fact that they will not correct their mistake is ironic for a company with the word 'guarantee' in their name.

This is exactly my point, what good is a grading company when you can not have any confidence in their grades. I agree that even with coins of the same grade some will be better quality the others, and you should still 'buy the coin'. But this much difference leads to a complete lack of confidence.

PCGS does guarantee their attributions.

We can quibble over what is a 15 or a 30, but the difference in the two coins I posted was the issue. Regardless of the absolute score you give one or the other, those two coins do not have anywhere near the same level of wear.

There are coins, like the 1851 N40, which have severely worn dies and produce coins in vf30 which may appear to be f15 in other varieties, I understand you have to grade with this in mind. But for the two coins I linked two this does not come into play.

This may be true, but it does not change the fact that NGC is not good. They may be better then bad, but it's still not something I will pay a premium for.

One we all do, and their is value in it. While I agree pictures are not the best way to determine wear, on the two coins I posted, it is beyond rational to deny the difference in wear. We are not talking about the difference between MS62 and AU55 from a picture here.

I will accept this premise, which leads me to believe NGC is not consistent with their grading, and often have coins overgraded.

I think we are in basic agreement here, as you state do not 'trust the TPG to get a grade/value/attribution right'. This is exactly my sentiment, and if I can't trust NGC to do this then they are not top tier. What is the point of paying someone to grade/attribute a coin if you can not trust them to do it correctly?

As a copper collector I am sure you are familiar with CVM, from their website: http://www.earlycents.com/terms.htm

1. All coins are guaranteed genuine. I will replace or issue a refund for any coin found not to be genuine. This is a lifetime guarantee.
2. All attributions are guaranteed correct. Also a lifetime guarantee. I will issue a refund or if available provide a replacement for any coin found to be mis-attributed.

How about Tom Reynolds at http://www.earlycoppers.com/Terms.htm:

2. All coins are guaranteed genuine. Attributions are guaranteed. No time limit.


These people are top tier, not NGC.

 

It's only ironic if you weren't aware of it already, and who said they wouldn't correct their mistake -- they just don't guarantee it.

What I was trying to explain is your confidence was unfounded to begin with. TPGs are a crutch that should not be relied on -- despite the G in their name or their printed guarantees. The sooner you learn this lesson, the better off you will be, IMO.

That was news to me. Thanks for the correction.

I presume you've heard of market and net grading, which explains the difference in wear on coins with similar grades -- no strike issues necessary.

I agree, NGC is not good with attributions. Frankly, every single experienced collector I know is aware of this....and who said you should pay a premium?

Speak for yourself. I never buy from pictures or make judgments condemning the TPGs for their in-hand opinion.

And I've given you a very good explanation for the difference in wear (the anacs coin is a recolored XF coin they net graded), but for some reason you're not hearing me.

To put it as my nephew would. No duh.

CVM and TR, two dealers I know well, also absolutely top tier. However, and in fairness, they have margin to put their money where their mouth is, and the time to do it right.

If I might be so bold, I think a better parallel in the copper world is Bob Grellman, who I suspect you are aware, attributes and grades coins for a fee. I could be wrong, but I do not believe he guarantees his attributions to the extent you expected NGC would.

Again, think your biggest mistake was trusting a TPG, when all they are doing is voicing their opinions. The rest of the presumptions were your own, and assumptions can be very dangerous in the coin game.

Respectfully...Mike

 

Mike, I think it may be the tone because I don't see much you have written that I disagree with. My title questions why people like NGC so much, and you seem to agree, there is not much to like about them.

To some of your points. NGC said they would not do anything about the 1851 N9 attributed as N36, and if you look at the diagnostics it's a bad mistake.

I have learned the lesson, their grades are worthless, I rarely buy slabbed coins. I was pointing out how worthless they are, I think we are on the same page. In fact, I think they are so worthless that I crack all my coins out, even the MS ones.

I put more trust in both the attribution and grading consistency that Bob does then any TPG company. It's a great comparison, he does it for free, people pay I don't even know how much to get it done by NGC/PCGS. I would not expect him to guarantee his attribution, it was not a professional opinion that you paid money for.

Maybe the last part is the disagreement, but it's one of degree not substance. The TPGs, and NGC in particular with their variety attribution, are not just voicing their opinion. They are being paid to perform a service which they should stand behind, and they don't.

Last thing, and it's always important to think about. The incentives for all these TPG companies is screwed up, which I think drives the general grading inflation over time. Once they have a broad base of graded coins, it's just too enticing to inflate the grade by one level. They get to regrade every coin they previously graded as people look to resubmit their coins to get the now inflated better grade. You can see this dynamic at work with the premiums that OGH still bring.

 

Fair enough -- I think we've found common ground. And let me apologize again for my gruff tone (as stated in my first words to you, it was done for effect).

Also, I think you make a good point about gradeflation and its cause. Profit is a strong motivator and it runs counter to a collector's best interest.

However, I disagree with your portrayal of NGC's attribution service as anything but an opinion, and their lack of guarantee seems to support my position. That said, there is an appearance of a shortcoming given NGC's record of (mis)attribution -- but again, this is hardly news, and there are much more egregious examples of misattribution of a late date large cent (which I'm sure you'll admit is not a particularly easy series to attribute, even when we're talking about the relatively easy ones like 51n9 and n36).

The bottom line for collectors reading this is to TRUST NOBODY EXCEPT YOURSELF. The coin game is stacked against us, and it's every man for himself.

Take care, and please post around here more often.

 

...Climbing up onto my soapbox:

Buy the coin, not the holder. Do NOT rely on someone in a windowless, and probably not well ventilated and lighted office setting to determine whether a coin is acceptable for your collection. Rather, knowledge is king. Research, even at your local library if you must, talk to other collectors, read sites like Cointalk and participate. That off of my chest, I will opin that I usually prefer PCGS graded coins if they absolutely must be entombed in infernal plastic coffins. But even PCGS has a SNAFU from time to time.

Descending thus from my soapbox...

 

Beef1020, they should stand behind their variety attributions. That's simply unacceptable if they don't. On their grades, they're market grading, and those grades are simply where they perceive the coins fit in the market. Why do you think they invented market grading and have been trying ever since as hard as they can to wean us off technical grading? We simply can't hold them to those grades like we otherwise could were they technical grading.

 

Bah, the 8 year olds have it right. Collect coins for fun, not for tiny little differences in grades and other crap TPG makes so "important".

Come and collect ancients with me. I have a blast, crack out any slab I lay my hands on, and don't worry about most of the stuff US collectors have to worry about.

It just seems US collecting, ever since TPG, has gotten so dang "serious". Yeah, there was pretty big money before, but I just think slabbing has caused more lack of fun in a HOBBY than anything. People arguing over a 1/70th difference in a grade and ignoring the history and beauty of a coin...............

 

Even though ive had the bug to continue upgrading my U.S. coins, I can honestly say I do have more fun with ancients then I do like the shield & buffalo nickel I posted, which are slabbed.

 

In the slab it's a 30, out of the slab it's a 15.

It may be recolored, (I didn't pay any attention to the color) but no way does it have XF detail.

You say, and their guarantee says) that you will be compensated. But you have been waiting four months and so far no compensation. Let us know when it finally happens and how much they decide to compensate you. Might be interesting to find out how much they think a rare variety is worth.

They charge for grading which is a subjective opinion, and the guarantee it. They charge for attributions which are an objective determination, they should guarantee those as well.

I think I've been called an 8 year old......Why does this not bother me?