What is natural toning?????????????????????

Well put. I would add grading is similarly just an opinion, but one in which concrete evidence is present, and has a much more narrow error percentage, (though they use their OWN standards, which is not discussed much with beginners).

Toning is such a troublesome subject since it is unprovable. I have seen NT by me, (I put the coin away BU white), that others here would swear was AT. I am talking vivid greens and pinks. I have also seen in person AT done on a problem coin that I would have bought from a dealer 100 times over as a NT coin. There is no proving it, and as such I wish the TPGers would just stay out of it, and make no judgments as to color. Them providing a "protection" that a coin is NT just further inflates a market and encourages people to ruin white coins with AT to try to get them slabbed and "verified". I truly do feel bad for all of the white coins being ruined today. Take away any kind of guarantee associtted with color in slabbing, and I think the multiples will decline and less people would be wanting to AT.

Just my opinion.

Chris

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Fair enough Chris. I just thought both parties were overstating their case a little. I try to correct mistatements for the benefit of lurkers as well, and I trust your motives.

Chris

 

One of the great things about coins sellers on Ebay, that is not the case in all other collecting arenas - is that they almost universally take coins back with full refunds, usually no questions asked and sometimes even include return shipping. I have returned a coin or two, and had no problems doing it. I know for a fact that many ebay coin sellers are actually dealers - the same folks who set up tables at coin shows and some who even have store fronts. And because I collect in the lower value ranges (I prefer that, it doesn't have anything to do with what I can afford) I rarely buy slabbed coins, but have cracked a few lower end pieces because I hate the darned packages. If I were interested in the higher end market I doubt I would do that - I'd keep them slabbed.

Maybe a slightly more diplomatic analogy will help Among other things, I buy and trade violins. When someone buys a $20,000 ++ violin, they expect it to be appraised and certified by a qualified shop. Understandable. And, despite all best efforts, it's possible to take the same violin to several different qualified appraisers and get different opinions on authenticity and value. But paying for appraisals on factory made or even lower end hand-made violins (like say, under $5,000) is rare because it's a waste of money, time, and effort and just deducts from the proceeds that you can get from the instrument. So, I'll give you a recent coin example - I recently bought an 1878 8 tf VAM8 (stickfeather - you're probably familiar with it) from a dealer - sight unseen. It was graded and slabbed at AU55. I paid $160 for it. I know almost for certain, based on observing sales for several months, that the very same coin, unslabbed, would have brought maybe $120, but probably under $100. And especially since while it met my grading standards, it's not the most attractive coin I've ever bought. I bought it as an experiment and because I wanted that VAM - but I would prefer more opportunities to purchase good, modest value coins for less, get a picture of the coin in advance, and take the ultimate grading risk myself. Just my own view, really, yes, from my own very interesting and scenic little corner of the world.

 

which is generally the response and some supect their modus operendi for increasing profit share.

I'm of the opinion that the TPG should completely stop "no grading" coins that they suspect have been unnaturally toned and leave that opinion up to the collector. The obvious nogrades would be coins that have had chemicals applied of which traces can be found and identified and/or spray paint.

Other than that, coins which are made of silver will tone in, as of yet, undefinable ways.

read this thread http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=4839026#Post4839026 where artificially toned coins were sold in a lot yet appear a year or so later in TPG slabs.

This in effect, tells me that the TPG's, regardless of who they might be, do not have a clue on what is natural and what is not other than that which is produced via the addition of some chemical to the surface of the coin.

The reality is that coins, which are made of metal, tone. Some very quickly while others not so quickly. Some in predictable patterns with others in not so predictable patterns. Some in predictable colors while others in not so predictable colors.

It should be up to the collector on what he/she prefers to purchase and if any blame is to be cast, it should be on each and every post that starts with "Look at this Monster Toner" or any coin service which touts the beauty and natural appearance of some toned collection. It's baloney like this that pertpetuates the myth that these "toned monsters" have somehow been secreted away and lovingly cared for since their birth which I think is nothing more than sales hype to build value. And now, the TPG's, regardless of who they may be, are using their combined years of experience to state that they know what is natural and what is not to which I say............poo-poo!

They really do not have a clue and their "opinion" does nothing more than line their pockets with additional money.

 

It's interesting that you mention VAM's because I have quite a few, but not all of them are slabbed. Those I usually have graded and attributed are the Top 100, Hot 50 and Hit List 40. I do have others not in these categories that are certified, but they were purchased many years ago before VAMming really took off. Some of those are in the old (small & white) ANACS holders. I know that I could submit the VAM's that don't fall into these categories to ANACS since they attribute all VAM's, but I prefer not to and that has nothing to do with the company itself. The reason I don't care for the new ANACS is because you can crack open their slabs just by twisting them in your hands. It's also pointless submitting a VAM for certification when it is only worth $100-$200. Once you've added the grading fees to the purchase price, you're into the coin for 25% or more.

I happen to like the 1878 8TF's with the engraved wing feathers, too. I just can't get enough of them. I took the liberty of copying the most recent sales for the VAM-8 from VAMWorld. As you can see, the prices are all over the place.

Price History:
1878-P VAM-8 ANACS MS62 VAMquest $277.86 12/06
1878-P VAM-8 PCGS AU50 eBay $122.44 12-23-2007
1878-P VAM-8 Raw AU eBay "store item" Buy It Now $75.00 July 2008
1878-P VAM-8 NGC MS63 eBay $229.49 05-24-09
1878-P VAM-8 PCGS MS63 VamWorld BSTA $600 March 2010

I won't comment on the violins because I know zilch about them, but I'd imagine that auction prices can sometimes be as quirky for them as they are for coins. All you need is two bidders who want the same item, and the price can go sky high, but if no one is interested, it can sell below its appraised value.

Surprisingly, all of the certified 8TF's that I have are graded MS63 by ANACS, NGC and PCGS, but I never paid more than $150 for any of them.

Chris [HR][/HR]

 

It's what the TPG's say it is.



Natural or Unnatural?




















Whew. I'm glad you said natural since thats what the TPG said!



Heck, they even gave it a bump in grade!

 

Some people swear by PCGS, but this time I think I'd swear at them.

Chris

 

I've done my fair share of swearing at them as well.

However, I see just as many NGC toned coins although none as blatant as the above.

 

Hey, can anyone explain how you might create toning like that - if you were to go the AT route? Wow!

 

Nope.

 

I could, but I won't. That's how coin doctors get their start, eh?

 

I agree, Nope.

Some of us here do know how to do this, and even AT tone a coin to look like NT, but its best left unsaid. Information like that just doesn't tend to help the hobby long term.

 

Agreed. The biggest mistake the TPG's made is using the terms AT and NT. They they to change to "Market Unacceptable Toning" because that they can judge, they cannot normally differentiate AT unless it's obvious as ****.

 

Kind of like posting the directions to build a nuke I suppose. But among those of you with that expertise - seems you're saying this could be done? And it would be impossible to discern (as per other comments in this thread)?

 

Done correctly by one with experience and knowledge, yes, indistinguishable from any album or roll toned coin.

 

/agreed, and in that answer lies yours fiddlehead.

 

The OP's Franklin is 100% natural toning. Clearly.
Can you send them to PCGS? (I know it's expensive)
I think your Frankie is GORGEOUS!!! :kewl:


I cannot believe the ASE posted above. Now that is a crime against nature.