Just got this back from NGC. It's a 1701 Austria (Hall) Taler featuring Leopold the Hogmouth. It's got wonderful green, blue, and gold toning on the obverse. The luster is excpetional. Very nice strike. It graded MS65. This picture shows the color:
Gmarguli,that is a very nice Holy Roman Empire Thaler.I'm not sure if there was a country called Austria at that time.I know that the title of 'Kaiser von Osterreich' (Emperor of Austria) is first recorded in 1804,2 years before the Holy Roman Empire was abolished. Aidan.
There may not have been a country called Austria then but that coin does say AVST on it so the name existed.The Duchy of Austria (Osterreich) was founded and possibly named in 936 AD and by 996 AD was used commonly as the name for this "Eastern Realm" (the translation from German)
Nice one! Almost makes me want to take up collecting talers again. On the downside...sorry, but I just can't accept the way you left pondians want to stick coins like that into slabs and give them grades that only left pondians give a rats patoot about. Anyone in Austria know what a `65' is? Your coin though and your choice ...which I can respect, but also vocally disagree with. Ian
But you're wrong about no one other than Americans caring about slabbed grades. I sell quite a bit of slabbed foreign and many go back to their home country. I doubt that they would sell for anywhere near what I get if they were raw. The end buyer might not care about an MS65 from an MS66, but the slabbed grade does tell them what to expect as far as quality goes. They know if it's in an MS65 slab the coin is likely going to be nice. If I say it is MS65, they have to take my word. Also, I've sold MANY Austrian coins, including several GEM roller die coins and not a single one ever went back to Austria. I also sold a rare proof set and it didn't go back to Austria. My guess is that Austrians don't care about coins at all. As for why I slabbed this coin (and all my coins): 1) It offers protection. Ever want to show a coin to someone who wasn't a coin person? Very rarely will I if the coin is raw. We're not talking $5 coins here, they're in the thousands of dollars and it's very peaceful to know that even if they drop the coin, they won't damage it. 2) Long-term storage. Coins are fairly secure in slabs. I don't have to worry about PVC in flips or the coins sliding back and forth in the flips getting hairlines or getting custom made holders, etc. Slabs are pretty cheap. This slab was $25. 3) Insurance. If the coin turns bad (i.e. environmental damage, toning gone bad, etc) the grading company will compensate me. I have quite a few toned coins including about 50 classic US commems in MS65-MS67. Given their cost, I'll be happy to pay $10-$25 to have the grading company assume the liability of these coins turning bad. 4) Authenticity. I know the coin is genuine and basically unmolested. I have an expert opinion that the coin is real, never mounted or tooled, and in fairly original condition. 5) Salability. While I have no plans on selling this coin, when that day comes the fact it is slabbed will make it a lot easier to sell and get me more value. You can't argue that the cost of the slab ($25) didn't increase the value of this coin. And I may need to sell it in a rush. Better to slab it now than in the future.
Greg, I couldn't have said it better myself :high5: And again let me say ..........beautiful coin !!!
I can't argue with your experience selling coins. I can argue with your assertion that i'm wrong. For years American dealers have been hoovering up talers and crowns from foreign auctions to satisfy the collector demand for them in the US. That's supplyb and demand in action. Over the past ten years or so the improving exchange rates have meant that the US has faced stronger competition from european buyers and collectors. So it should not come as any surprise that coins also flow out of the US these days. Especially if they are cheaper than can be bought locally. Even i've bought slabbed coins. Why? Certainly not because of the plastic, the name on the plastic, the description...or indeed anything remotely to do with the plastic. Simply because they were cheaper in the US than I could find the equivalent elsewhere. I've had over 1,200 different coin purchasing transactions ranging from a few dollars to a few thousand with sellers / dealers in the US over the past five years. Buying coins that i'd have to pay significantly more for if they were being sold over here. The exchange rates have shifted quite considerably in my favour in comparison to the five years previous. Sure, some of my purchases have been slabs. However, to me the plastic serves more as an obstacle to the appreciation of the coin than it does as a means of preservation IMHO. Tell me something. How old was that coin before you slabbed it? Now...are you trying to say that you are incapable of acting as curator of that coin and preserving it in a condition it has had for centuries without sticking it in a lump of plastic? ...or is it an `insurance' thing? You point out the wonderful colour that centuries of cabinet toning has achieved on that coin. If the technology had been around a century or so ago and had been slabbed. I wonder if the properties it possesses would be the same. The downsides you point out above seem to be an `insurance' kind of thing again. Oh I can fully appreciate the market in the US for slabbing. It is an industry in its own right. Big busines, and one that plays on `insurance', `preserving your valuables' and `resale values'. However you must be aware it is an industry that simply doesn't exist outside of its borders excepting to a small extent in Canada. ??? But surely you already know all that, why would you need the opinion of somebody who claims expertise (but probably has never seen more than two or three similar examples in their life)? What you have just said in point 4 is hardly a reason for slabbing. You need the `insurance' of an `expert' other than yourself? I'm sorry, but just as you have experience, I too have experience and of the few slabs that have made it into my possession a VERY high percentage of them have been real howlers! Like one grading company proclaiming a coin to be a rotated die. Oh sure it was a rotated die, but MECHANICALLY rotated (as in `fake'). Like one company grading a Matt proof Edward VII shilling as a business strike MS. Like not getting the German State for a 5 mark piece right. Like simply spelling the name of a commemorative 1/2 dollar wrong. Like getting grades of coins out by sometimes more than a full grade. I can't say I like the error margins or the consistency of error. I've even seen ancients mis-attributed (to the extent of seeing a fake in a slab). Again, I can't argue with your experience. All I know is that here in Europe slabbed coins really do sell for less than their raw equivalents. As I said, I generally only buy slabbed `world' coins when they are better priced than I can obtain them elsewhere. The market is changing. The US market has been insulated over the years and the `slabbing' market is very much a US thing. The www has changed all that and continues to do so. However while the market for coins is now global, the demand for `slabbing' certainly isn't, and I for one hope that that remains to be the case. The coin that you have will sell for its perceived value irrespective of whether it is slabbed or not. If a foreign buyer is buying your items I am fairly confident it is not because the coins are `slabbed' but because of the item and the fact that it is available from you for less than an equivalent coin locally. Stunning coin, but the slabbing is definitely a downside for me. Ian
I have to agree that I dont like slabs, I personaly think that they are ugly and take away from the simple beuaty of a coin. I cant & wont argue with your reasoning for wanting slabed coins all I can give is my humble opinion :smile De Orc :kewl:
It’s a mixture of ease and insurance. I will not keep a coin like this in a flip. I’d need to get a holder for it and given it’s shape, I’d probably want to do a custom one from Capital. That’d cost around $25, so a slab is the same price. True, but how many coins have been ruined because they were kept in cabinets and slid back and forth creating cabinet friction (wear) and lots of hairlines? And while the toning is nice now, leave it in the same environment that caused the toning for another hundred years and we’d be talking about how it was once probably a nice looking coin, but the toning is now too dark and impairs the luster. You don’t give the people that work at the grading companies enough credit. Many were full time dealers before working for the grading companies. They now examine around 1,000 coins a day and they’ve probably seen more examples of these coins than most people. Over the years I’ve had the pleasure of meeting many of them. They are very good at what they do. And while I trust myself when buying these coins raw, it is still nice to have a second opinion. They’ve caught some SUPERB repair work that went unnoticed by several major dealers. They’ve also caught counterfeits that had lengthy provenances and were sold by highly regarded firms. I’m not sure how many slabs you see in a year, but I see tens of thousands. I spent probably $50,000+ last year on slabbing fees alone. I see a LOT of slabbed coins. While they do make mistakes, overall they are pretty good. Sure, I’ve had them screw up things like the spelling of countries or listing the wrong country on the insert and getting the PF/MS wrong. However, given the number of coins they grade, mistakes are going to happen, but they really don’t happen that often. And it’s not like I haven’t seen the same type of mistakes from well respected dealers. As for the grading, all you can ask for is consistency. They can be off by a full grade according to your standards, but as long as they are consistently off by that same full grade, it’s fine by me.
IMHO `cabinet friction' is a lazy `catch all' used by people who should (and usually do) know better to explain away marks that make a coin shy of being fully `uncirculated'. It conjures up the idea that as drawers are being slid in and out of a cabinet that the coins inside are sliding back and forth generating wear (and anything other detraction the dealer wants to sweep under the carpet). While such friction damage may theoretically occur over centuries of such drawer sliding, at the very worst it would produce a very minor brightening on the extreme high points of a coin and only be noticeable if a coin is very heavily toned. It cannot be ascribed as the reason for `hair lines'. All I can say is that that one of yours seems to have survived without any of these problems. Presumably it was in a cabinet? Where's all the evidence of this fabled `cabinet friction' then? Maybe the cabinet it was in was fit for purpose though. Who knows.... Oh but I think I do. If I was buying / selling coins in the US market I will be honest and say that I don't know if i would go the route of slabbing or not. I think one or two of the grading companies are good at grading US coins. That's their experience and high turnover area. There are however slabbing companies that (without mentioning any names) are very demonstrably and undisputably pure rubbish. As far as World coins are concerned....well personally, I can't fault the plastic and its preservation qualities (even though I don't like it), but the third party grading companies to me are all pretty much rubbish. ANACS are probably the best for attribution. Sure, I don't get to see the quantum of slabs you do (thankfully I may add!), i've only got my percentum experience....and that is enough to show me they are dire. I can't imagine ever wanting to slab a 1935 Edward V `rocking horse' crown...the one with the error edge. Would you buy one in a slab? Tell me if you can how these 3rd party graders manage to determine what the MS grading points are on a coin such as yours? What exactly are the grading aspects of that particular coin as opposed to say a Lafayette Dollar or a Buffalo nickel? Using the `MS' grading system on a coin like that Austrian taler is a joke to anyone outside of the US, pure and simple. It's just a part of the slabbing game to the US marketplace. You have obviously `bought into' the slabbing game. It is no small wonder that you defend it and promote it. It is part of your business. I can understand that aspect. In one survey ACG came out as being the most consistent of all the 3rd party graders. So by your logic concerning `consistency' you should be very happy slabbing everything with ACG..... no? Sorry, but IMHO `being consistently off' is not the kind of quality assurance standard anyone should be happy paying for. In any event...it appears that last years MS64 is this years MS65. Not only do the grading goal posts move, but the pitch apparently moves with them. So much for the concept of `consistency'. The concept of `market grading / gradeflation' ensures that there will always be a nice little niche market / scam going on with regards to break outs and re-grading.
