I have noticed that the online prices for NGC graded and PCGS graded coins (same date/mint) can be wildly different (PCGS typically much higher). I have always heard that PCGS and NGC are the top 2 (premier) coin grading companies in the world -- and NGC seems very respected by everyone. Why would a similarly graded coin in an NGC slab be worth so much less than the same date/mint/condition coin in a PCGS slab? Is NGC really that much more lax in their grading standards, that their coins will generally grade 1 step lower by PCGS? Or is there simply more demand for coins in PCGS slabs because of their online registry feature? Or perhaps people like the clear slabs more than the white slabs? But a $20,000 difference in price? I don't get it. (Unless these price guides are really flawed) If NGC is so bad why do so many people use their services? And do some avoid NGC graded coins due to this lax grading standard (if they are lax)? For example if you look at the following coin and condition 1909 VDB Matte Proof Lincoln MS65RB condition A PCGS slabbed coin is listed on the PCGS price guide website at $47,500 A NGC slabbed coin is listed on the NGC price guide website at $28,130 That's nearly a $20,000 difference (almost double).
I'm sure others with more experience will chime in, but in my limited research (not buying!) experience, PCGS is stingier with the really high grades. I've noticed this with Shield and V nickels, Large Cents, 2 C pieces, etc. A Shield that has an NGC FMV of say, $1,500 could be valued at $4,000 on PCGS's price guide. Your Lincoln is an extreme example of this. PS: you might like to know that the Coin Dealer Newsletter (Grey sheet) includes in their weekly publication a "comparison of [sight-unseen] certified coin Bids relative to CDN sight-seen Bid levels" and, for about the past year or so, I'd say, NGC has actually inched out PCGS in this average. I.e., sight-unseen NGC slabs sell for about 79% of their sight-seen counterparts while PCGS slabs sell for about 78% of their sight-seen counterparts. Certainly this suggests confidence in NGC, despite PCGS having more clout in the higher grades (which is not true for all issues, BTW). By comparison, sight-unseen ANACS slabs sell for roughly 54% of their sight-seen counterparts. Quite a difference! Bottom line, NGC and PCGS are reputable but PCGS commands a premium in the higher grades of certain issues. At least that's been my experience.
> You have to ask yourself why PCGS is so quick to banish members of the CU Forums when someone speaks of ANYTHING that puts PCGS in a negative light. If you don't think this happens, then you should see the number of former PCGS "Kool-Aid" drinkers who have been banished and have emigrated to the CS Forums at NGC. > You have to ask yourself why PCGS allows ONLY PCGS-certified coins in their Registry. Are they trying to perpetuate the myth that their service is better or do they just want to encourage members to submit or cross only to them? Or both? If they're so much better, what are they afraid of? > Once they have migrated to the CS Forums, former CU members are actually surprised that they are able to express their views openly at NGC without fear of retaliation. It doesn't matter to me whether anyone submits to PCGS or not. I TRUST NGC! Chris
A person can look up the pop reports through the Heritage auction archives. Often times the pops will indicate why the PCGS coin costs more. Often times there are fewer examples at that grade. To take a hypothetical, if the pops are 500 coins for NGC 67 and 50 at PCGS 67, the market price for the PCGS coin is likely to be higher. As the price difference widens at auction, many of the NGC coins, get tried for crossover. If many make it, the price difference flattens, if they fail, which is the usual event, the price difference may widen. Registry set competition also causes distortions in pricing for top pop coins. For the person looking to buy, best to research typical auction results, and also learn the finer points of grading before spending the big money.
Seemingly Without Reason!! I've followed the PCGS pricing schemes over the years, and I believe that they generally have an obscure basis, seemingly contrary to norms of sales. It seems as if "they" determine that the highest reported sales price is to be the "standard" for a given coin/grade. It appears that others use something close to the mean sales price. I do know that dealers often use the PCGS suggested price to justify their sales pricing, while using C.D.N. bid to justify their buys. I have virtually never found the PCGS guide to be realistic when buying or selling, although the majority of my expensive coins are in PCGS holders. My experiences may be predicated on the fact that I try to sell in venues which net the best win-win buy/sale outcome. I also believe that C.D.N. reports better reflect average "normal" sales. I suspect that others may also share our lack of understanding. :smile
If I were making a purchase I would focus on the coin. The grade and population are artificial constraints, and commonly utilized as a marketing tool. If you like the coin make the purchase - you will not regret it. Recently I have picked up a few Morgans which are graded 63-64 but in terms of appeal are highly desirable to my eye. In fact they look much better than many other Morgans I have seen in 65-66 plastic. Purchase the coin and ignore the casket. There are many - many gems which have "accurate" numerical grades for which I would not pay even the slightest premium.
That is the simple and correct answer in my opinion. Look at closed auctions on heritage for something that might be more reasonable or accurate. Keep in mind the nicer coins might command hundreds or thousands of dollars more than similiarly graded coins. The holder will not matter.
For new coins (e.g. ATB proof quarters), would NGC have a higher ratio of PF70 to PF69 compared to PCGS ratio of PR70 / PR69?
From what I've seen, the premium is derived because, typically, if you submit an NGC coin to PCGS, you'll have a heck of a time getting it to cross. The other way around is a bit easier, and this leads to the perception that PCGS is tougher on coins than NGC.
I tend to support this idea (PCGS being stingier on some issues = lower pops). However, it's not always the case. Here's a current listing on Heritage for a nice MS66 1872 Shield nickel: http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1156&lotNo=3201&lotIdNo=48001 If you look at the five listed previous prices, coins in a PCGS holder fetched roughly 2.5x what the NGC ones did—and in this case the NGC pop is actually lower than PCGS's! (Although, importantly, NGC has two coins graded higher; PCGS doesn't). The current (PCGS) coin is well on its way to the same level. Some buyers simply think PCGS is more rigorous on some issues. This is a gorgeous Shield, by the way, but I've seen mediocre PCGS Shields fetch way more than better-quality NGC ones; cases of people buying the holder, not the coin.
I agree with other posters here. The prices listed on the respective sites has more to do with how THEY interpret coin prices than differences in the marketplace pricing of coins from the two firms. Some dates/mints will have differences between the two companies, but I think PCGS is just wildly inflated prices is what is what is going on. They put together the list of US coins showing wild appreciation over the years. If you actually look at the details of the list, they are all very high end coins, but they publish it to make the general public believe ALL coin collecting is a lucrative investment, (as long as its certified by PCGS). Go to most dealer cases, and there is not a discernable price difference between the two. Pick out a few coins on PCGS' price list and ask yourself honestly, would YOU pay that price?
Well, for me, I just like the look of a PCGS slab more than an NGC slab, and that's why I'll spend a little extra for a coin in a PCGS slab. It could be things that simple that drive the premium for PCGS slabs on the lower and mid-range priced coins. Now, if I was buying a coin that was $500+, the slab wouldn't matter so much to me as the coin itself.
It is interesting that NGC allows PCGS coins in their registry sets but PCGS will not allow NGC coins. We could debate many reasons. But this too contributes to the perception that PCGS is tougher. I think it is fair to say each company has some series where it is more strict. As a longtime copper collector I would agree that PCGS is indeed tougher there. Consult some of the very best dealers of small cents and you will get strong agreement. As for the question, "Pick out a few coins on PCGS' price list and ask yourself honestly, would YOU pay that price?" My answer is absolutely. I have. Well above, in some instances. But not always...it depends on the coin. Lance.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most of the EAC'ers have a disdain for any kind of slab? Chris
Don't know a bunch of them and I won't say all of them, but I believe that is true. I do know this - one site I watch for coins used to never have slabbed coins for sale. Now more and more are being slabbed and on sale on the site. Just my humble opinion.
