Hi, I just recieved a 1961 proof set, and was curious as to why the franklin is worth only $25 in PF and $200 in MS65 Besides condition, is there a detectable difference in the two coins? How do people know they are buying a MS-65 and not just a proof set coin? Should I damage my coin a little to increase its value !?!?!?! (obviously i wont but do u see my point):computer: Do you recomend removing coins from proof sets and placing them in airtights for better protection? Please help me learn more about this hobby! Iam one of the few next generation coin collectors (born in 1980)
MS coins are often worth more than proofs, particularly in modern coinage. The regular coins people carried around and spent, however proofs are meant to stay in their holders, and tend to have high grades. A ms-67 franklin will be exceedingly rare, however it may not be too rare to see a pf-67. If you damage it, the only thing you will do is damage it, it will not increase it's value. An expert can very easily differentiate between the two. Airtites are nice, and I do put some of my coins in them, although if you leave the proof sets in a safe place, and don't handle them, they will do just fine in their cellophane wrappers.
There's no need to be an expert to tell the difference - anybody can just by looking at the coin. Proof coins typcially have highly polished fields - looks just like a mirror. Business strike coins, Uncs, do not.
Welcome to the forum! Your the same age as my oldest sister.....I'm 17 so I'm also one of the new set of collectors. Speedy
To paraphrase a remark common in the real estate business, the three primary factors are appearance, appearance, and appearance. Circulating coins are struck once - proof coins are struck at least twice, greatly improving the sharpness of the strike. Circulating coins are struck from dies that remain in use until the end of the production run for that coin, unless they break or become worn out before that. Proof coins are struck from highly polished dies, that are generally well maintained. Circulating coins generally lack the mirror-like surfaces of proof coin fields, and almost always lack the frosted appearance of proof coin design elements and legends. It doesn't really take an expert to tell the difference. Once you've seen a few hundred proofs and circulators of the same issues, you'll never mistake which is which. Almost all so-called "proof-like" business strikes are clearly distinguishable from real proofs. Dagnabit Doug - quit typing so much faster than I do.
In this group of coins, there are 7 proofs and 2 uncirculateds. If you look closely, I think you will be able to tell which is which.
I think the most of the price difference is based on remaining population. There are simply many more Proofs around than MS65+ in some years. Just about every proof was saved and is available today, while if a coin was not popular in it's day, most business strikes were worn down in circulation. The final factor is there are probably many more collectors of the Unc Franklin series than people that collect all the proof Franklins. So this is basically a supply and demand issue. But I do agree with you that it seems sort of upside down.
The original question in this thread was asked over 5 years ago, but apparently people still don't understand the reason. It's simple - there is a huge difference between MS65 and PF65. MS65 is a fairly high grade for a business strike coin. Rarely will you find business strike coins graded higher than 65 with 67 about as high as you can go. When it comes to Proofs however, 65 is a fairly low grade with 63 being about as low as you will ever see - when it comes to coins minted in the 20th century and later. So do not confuse the two usages of the same number - they are anything but equal.
This actually brings to fore a question which has been on my mind this year. With the Mint defaulting back to the plain uncirculated (not satin) finish on the 2011 uncirculated coin set are we likely to see significantly higher grades on uncirculated coins hereon? I have a few coins in my 2011 sets which are pushing MS69, and a half from the Denver mint is actually very shiny "deep/proof like." The nickels are all "FS" grade and the dimes mostly "FT / FSB." Any opinions out there?
i have a question: what grade are the coins in a 1962 set from the mint, in cellophane? these are not proofs, but uncirculated business strikes?
The simple answer is supply. My calculation from the PCGS population reports is that there were 1,549 coins at MS65 and 53 above MS65 in 1961 from both mints, including FBL grades. However, there were 2,836 coins at PF65 and 6,630 above PF65 in 1961, including CAM and DCAM. So there are just far less 1961 Frankies at MS65 and above than there are at PF65 and above. However, I seemed to gather from the original post that he thought MS and PF were both different grades on the same spectrum. As if PF is just higher than MS, and a PF coin could be damaged down to an MS grade. Hopefully the posts above mine made it clear what the difference is.
Prior to the introduction of the satin finish (2005-2010), most collectors relied on the Uncirculated Mint Sets for many of their high-grade business strikes. The problem is that in order to find that high-grade coin, you might have to buy/search 10, 20, 50 or more sets to find that one specimen that suits your needs. You see, business strikes from the Mint Sets don't receive any "special handling" like the satin finish coins did. They are taken from the same production line and the same bins that produce the circulation strikes. I seriously doubt that the "average" coin coming from these production runs will be better than MS66 or produce many FS or PL coins. Yes, it's possible that you may come across an occasional coin that will come close to MS69, but that will not be the norm, and on average, you would have to search many, many sets just to find ONE single MS69 coin. By the way, "shiny" does not equate to "deep/proof like". Chris
While what you say used to be true, the mint changed all of that back in the late '80s or early '90s. I do not recall the exact year. From that time on Mint Set coins were no longer taken from coins produced for circulation. Instead, Mint Set coins did receive special handling and packaging. And they were struck at higher pressures than business strike coins.
I too have read this in the past, and believe this info was on the packaging of one of my older mint sets but cannot verify. Which brings me back to the question: can the grading companies distinguish between a high grade business strike, and a high grade strike from an uncirculated mint set - i.e. if submitted without disclosure? Also (for my education) should there be a difference in a collectors mind between the two?
The current fad among collectors is to consider every little difference to be significant and the mint is happy to supply items sold above face value to feed the beast. When I collected as a kid, I looked up to Louis Eliasburg who had "The only complete United States Coin Collection." Today people say his collection was not complete because he (like most of us then) thought that proofs were just a super nice Philadelphia mint coin and saw no reason also to have a business strike ('defective') coin when he already had a perfect one. Later the mint really got carried away and made coins that were made in proof only even having marked mints (S and W) that made no 'real' coins (things made to be spent). I remember people who would break up proof sets to add the coins to their coin folders because that was the easy way to get a perfect coin. D and S marked coins would be added from circulation or as available from dealers. I lived in the Mid West then so we saw more nice D & S coins than plains anyway but some (including me) thought it looked better to use matching business strikes for all. None of this stuff is worth more than face or melt except when you (collectors) add a value to it by demand. If you really believe MS66 is worth double MS65 and half MS68, so be it. I recall a time when you could get a US proof set for less than the $2.10 issue price ($.91 face) and there is no guarantee anyone will return your issue price for any special product. It is all in the control of the 'next generation' of collectors. When I die, someone will have to decide if they want to give my estate a profit on what I bought or not. I recommend the next generation make up their own mind on where to spend their money and not accept the current fads unless they really seem to be worth giving new life for another generation. How many in the long run will care for the difference between bright and frosted? You may know someday. I won't. Meanwhile enjoy your hobby. I have.
Until the advent of the Satin finish Mint Sets the information I related below was posted on the Mint's web site. No, and neither can anyone else. There are some few exceptions however where certain die diagnostics are found only on the Mint Set coins. That is purely an opinion oriented question but mine would be no.
i'm not sure my question was answered; what should be the expected grade of a packaged business strike coin from the mint?
It would depend on the year of the set. Stuff from the 60's and 70's probably won't average much more than MS-63. Stuff from the 80's might make 65. In the late 80's or early 90's they began using more care, higher pressures and they retired the dies earlier (and sent them on to make production coinage.) On these 65's and better was common, and 67's were possible. In the 2000's through 2004 67's were not too unusual and 68's or 69's were sometimes possible. 2005 was an odd year. They had problems with the introduction of the satin finish. Quality of strike and marks is quite good because even greater care went into the striking and handling, but the satin finish varied from none to fully satin. The satin finish coins ten to be high grade 67's or so. The non-satin finish also are high grade but since "all" of the mint set coins for this year are satin finish they get graded as extremely high quality BUSINESS strike coins and command much more money than they would if they were "mint set coins". The satin finish 2006 - 2010 coins are uniformly high grade 67 - 69. What the 2011's will be like now that they have gotten rid of the sating finish I do not know. Since the average business strikes receive no special care they tend to be low end MS, 60 - 63 material. (This includes the roll and bag sets sold by the mint.) Since the 70's most high end "business strikes" that you see probably are actually mint set coins.
