Follow-up: that fake 1920-S Walker from eBay

Can't argue with that. I guess I'm just used to fake coins being returned so the seller can go after the person he got it from. I wonder if it would matter if the seller did not know he was selling a fake? None of the dealers I know would give me a refund without the coin but none of them would knowingly pass on a fake. Interesting thread.

 

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Federal law criminializes the possession of any counterfeit coin with the intent to defraud: Title 18, Part I, Chapter 25, Section 485:

Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person, or attempts the commission of any offense described in this paragraph—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both.

Federal law also clearly prohibits the manufacture or importation of counterfeits of coins of numismatic that aren't marked as copies, when there is the intent to distribute them. Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 25, Section 485 Section 2101, Part B:

The manufacture in the United States, or the importation into the United States, for introduction into or distribution in commerce of any imitation numismatic item which is not plainly and permanently marked “copy”, is unlawful and is an unfair or deceptive act or practice in commerce under the Federal Trade Commission Act.

Section 2102 of the same act allows for private enforcement:

If any person violates section 2101 (a) or (b) this title or a rule under section 2101 (c) of this title, any interested person may commence a civil action for injunctive relief restraining such violation, and for damages, in any United States District Court for a district in which the defendant resides or has an agent. In any such action, the court may award the costs of the suit, including reasonable attorneys’ fees.

In addition, many states also outlaw the possession of counterfeit coins with the intent to pass or utter them.

For you to return a counterfeit coin to somebody who just tried to sell it fraudulently could conceivably make you a party to the violation of the federal laws outlined above, and may also put you in violation of the laws of your state and/or the seller's state.

I would consider sending him text of the titles posted above, and asking him if he really wants to make a Federal case out of this.

 

Jeff,

Before you decide on what to do, I'd like to relate an incident that happened to me in 2005 with a seller from Kentucky. This occurred at a time when I was still "green behind the ears" when it came to protecting myself on eBay.

The eBay listing was for a 2005 $5 commemorative casino chip for the Kentucky Derby which I wanted to go with a 2005 set of Mint Julep glasses and shotglasses that I already owned. The photos weren't that good, but since the seller advertised it as a KD chip, I took his word for it. I paid $12.50 for it, but when I received it, I realized that it wasn't for the Kentucky Derby at all. Although "Run for the Roses" was readable on the legend, the chip was actually for the Travers Stakes rather than the KD.

I contacted the seller and explained that I was given the impression that it was a KD chip, and I would like my money back. He went ballistic on me and basically told me to drop dead. At that point, I posted negative feedback stating that he misrepresented the chip and refused to refund my money.

I thought everything was over at that point, but about a month later, I started receiving magazine subscriptions, medical literature, college enrollment applications, offers for hunting, golfing, fishing and other sports outings. It ran the gamut of solicitations of everything from soup to nuts. In all, I had received subscription invoices that totaled about $5000, and I had a stack of magazines and literature that was 3' high. I contacted all of the companies to advise them that it was a hoax, and a few of the companies had kept copies of the mail-in cards that were used to order the subscriptions. I asked for copies of the cards, and guess what? All of them originated from this seller's hometown, and they were in his handwriting. I filed a complaint with the USPS, turned over all of the "evidence" to postal inspectors and never heard anything after that, but it still took me almost 2 years to clean up the mess from those solicitations.

Personally, if it were me, I'd tell the seller that you would require a USPS Money Order (no other kind) for the return shipping before you send it back to him. Don't accept PayPal! However, before sending it, I would use a Dremel tool to inscribe "FAKE" across both sides. It's a double-edged sword no matter what you do, so I would also advise him that you will contact federal authorities if he continues to bother you. Using the internet and/or interstate commerce to perpetrate a fraud is a federal offense.

Chris

 

John... can you find (and quote) any state law stating that mere possession of a counterfeit coin (without intent to defraud by selling as genuine) is illegal? I believe (though I may be wrong) that all counterfeiting laws are federal and not state.

 

The laws I researched all required an intent to pass or utter. My error is now corrected in the original. Thanks.

 

Here is a link to a fascinating, and deeply disturbing, look at an industrial-scale Chinese counterfeiting enterprise:

http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoins/ig/Chinese-Counterfeiting-Ring/?nl=1

 

I disagree. In the case of a dope sale, both parties know that what they're doing is illegal. In this case, the buyer is not engaged in an illegal activity, and the seller may or may not be aware that the coin is fake. Also, if the seller bought the fake coin from someone else, he has the right to demand a refund from the person he bought it from. No coin, no refund. If it were me, I would send it back so I could wipe the slate clean of this affair.

 

I disagree... read post #33:

"The seller did it with full knowledge. I went back though his FB, and he was buying unmarked 'replicas' from auctions marked as 'replica' for .99c each."

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t175499-3/#ixzz1MnvzANeR​

 

Not only that, but ignorance of the law is no excuse. It makes not difference whether or not the parties in the drug deal knew it was illegal. They lose! When you turn a counterfeit bill into the bank and they discover it, guess who gets stuck with it. The only way you can get out of it is if you can prove who gave it to you so you can stick them. Oh, and I will bet you do not get your counterfeit bill back.

 

I don't have the time to check the seller's purchases, but it seems to me that if he only paid 99 cents for the darn thing, he wouldn't be making such a big deal about getting it back.

 

It would certainly matter to me. If the seller had gone with "I thought this coin was authentic -- naturally I'll accept it and refund your money", or even "what makes you think it's fake?", I would've returned it in a heartbeat. If he'd been as rude as he actually has been, but hadn't had a history of doing the same thing to other buyers, I might've still returned it.

But: he didn't deny that the coin was fake. He didn't offer to take it back for a refund. He didn't stop trying to sell unmarked replicas, even after I filed. And, most telling of all, his feedback history still shows the dozens of transactions where he bought apparently non-stamped replicas on eBay, then turned around and sold coins of the same type, date and mintmark on eBay, presenting them as authentic coins.

I got a rather apologetic message from PayPal support yesterday morning, pointing out that the seller "had refunded my money" and would like to know when he could expect to get his "coin" back. I called PayPal support, and the rep I talked to said I was not obligated to return the coin, but "it would be nice to return it, since you've got your money back and he doesn't have his merchandise". I mentioned turning over the coin to the Secret Service, and the rep said "that would be fine, too."

Still haven't decided what to do, but I still can't see returning this counterfeit to the guy who, based on multiple pieces of evidence, was making a nice business out of knowingly buying them as fakes and selling them as real.

 

Unless, of course, he expected to sell it for $50 to someone else.

Or he was nervous about leaving evidence.

 

Wow, that is depressing.

 

OK, so here is what I think you should do. First, you need to establish who paid your refund. Did paypal reimburse you at their expense (so the seller kept his money)...or did the refund come out of the sellers pocket. If the money did not come out of the sellers pocket, I don't think he has any right to the coin. If the money did actually come from him, then it is a little more complicated.

So, assuming it was paypal (and not the seller) who reimbursed you...you may do with the coin what you wish.

However, if the seller actually refunded you the money then I don't think you should keep the coin. Since the coin is clearly a counterfeit and the seller has a history of selling them. I would contact your local Secret Service Office and explain to them what has happened...including that you were refunded your money and that the seller wants the coin back. Let them advise you on what to do.

 

Well, that could be. You've dealt with him, so you know what he's like better than I do.

 

I would keep it. It's eating your time now, and that has to count for something. Plus it's nice to have a known fake on hand to compare future prospective purchases with. The guy knew what he was doing, and knows it's illegal. Changing your email address may be easier than dealing with him OR trying to ignore him. Hope you used a PO box

 

Well, here's his latest message (no giant letters this time):

I decided to alter my original response a little bit; it's probably too verbose, but I want to be as clear as I can.

I hope this guy doesn't decide to escalate into full harassment mode. But the more I thought about it, the less willing I was to return his fraudulent inventory. At this point, I'd sooner give him back the money -- and set law enforcement on him.

 

Excellent response Jeff... you made yourself very clear. I've followed this thread closely from the start, and in my opinion you handled the entire situation correctly.

 

Anyone have a link to the sellers feedback?

 

His account got deleted, IIRC.