What will this toner sell for at Auction?

If anything, I'd say the auction house pics look juiced. I mean, they probably have better lighting and such, but it's just vibrant in those bottom pics.

 

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OK, I voted 2750 - 3000!

 

1-1.25k vote.

 

And, of course, you would not be the winning bidder.

 

It looks like that after the juice this coin broke $3,100. I have to admit that I am blown away by that. I was hoping it would break $1,500.

 

And boy would I be so glad of that.

 

Hard to believe it's not AT.

 

I don't see how it would be considered AT. The toning looks even and at the ridges, it looks like it "creeps" onto the next surface, which is an indication of NT, if I recall. (I'm not a tone collector, so I'm going based off what I've read about AT/NT in the past.)

 

Wow; it's a beautiful toner but the premium is exorbitant. Congrats!

 

I can't swear that it's AT, especially since it's in a certified holder, although the "experts" have been fooled. Having looked at coins for 40 years, before the AT craze, I never saw a coin toned that way, with vivid sharp color changes. It may creep into the next color, so rather than it being completely painted on artificial toning (AT), it may be aided toning (AT). Then again, anything is possible, so maybe it's NT. Either way, I stay away from coins toned like that - they are pretty, but they just don't look natural to me.

 

So your reason for calling the coin AT is because you have spent 40 years collecting untoned coins and never seen a bag toned Morgan Dollar. Now that is scientific.

To my eye, this coin is the quintessential bag toned Morgan Dollar and very pretty ta boot.

Mark

 

I've seen plenty of bag toned coins and none looked like that. I'd say most of my coins are toned from storage in albums and none look like that. Forty years ago, nice "rainbow toning" (nothing like that coin) was desirable, but little premiium was put on it - it just made the coin easier to sell. Forty years ago, if the coin had ugy blotchy toning, it was dip in the hope that it would retone with a more appealing toning. Of course we all have a right to believe what we want. If you believe that's NT and are happy paying for it, great. I don't and wouldn't pay for it. For that matter I wouldn't pay much of a premium for any toning, as it's a natural process that will occur on it's own.

 

I have already stated that the coin in the OP is a quintessential bag toned Morgan Dollar. If that is not what a bag toned Morgan Dollar looks like, can you please show us what they do look like? You can't expect a coin stored in an album to develop the same toning pattern as a coin stored in a canvas bag, it doesn't work that way. I don't know what happened 40 years ago but just because you didn't see toned coins doesn't mean they didn't exist. In your estimation, when did the toning craze start (what year)?

Mark

 

Don't have a bag toned Morgan to show you. To say that the OP coin is a quintessential bag toned Morgan, leads one to believe a bag toned Morgan should look like that, which simply isn't true. The toning on any one Morgan out of a bag is random and everyone would be different. I'd say, the several hundred thousand Morgans I've seen that were fresh out of bags looked more like the OP's coin without the vivid rainbow. Absent some impression on the coin from the bag, I’d say you have no way of claiming that coin was toned in a bag. I said that it's possible that it is NT, yet I never saw one like that and the vivid rainbow on that coin looks like many AT coins I've seen, so I stay away from them. I can't give an exact date when the toning craze started, I've been in & out of the hobby, but I think when I returned, somewhere around 1995 it was going pretty strong.

 

That absolutely is what bag toned Morgan Dollars look like. They won't all look like that, but when they do, it is a clear indication of bag toning not artificial toning. Please read this site and try to learn about Morgan Dollar toning.

http://www.jhonecash.com/coins/tonedmorgans.asp#ntvsat

You seem very uninformed for someone who claims to have seen hundreds of thousands of Morgans direct from bags. I can't say for sure that any coin is NT and you can't say for sure that they are AT. But even you admit that textile toning all but settles the debate. So when you see the exact same toning pattern and color scheme on a Morgan without the textile pattern as one without, it leads you to believe that both are NT.

You stated that you have "looked at coins for 40 years, before the AT craze, I never saw a coin toned that way, with vivid sharp color changes." Then you stated in this post that the toning craze was going strong by 1995. Well this coin resides in an NGC 3 generation holder and was graded in 1988 or 1989. So you want us to believe that a coin that has a very typical toning pattern for a Morgan Dollar and was graded 23 years ago was the product of a coin doctor as opposed to coming from a canvas mint bag. Sorry, but I am not buying what you are selling!

Mark

 

You certainly like to put words in my mouth - the point being textile toned coins are faked too. Even though you state that coin was graded in the late 80's, from what I saw, there was nothing typical about that type of toning in the 60' & 70's. For that matter, who's to say when AT began. It's my understanding that early on, the grading services were fooled too, as they still are today.

You question my experiences and I question yours and it's entirely possible we had different experiences. As you know the question of AT/NT can and probably will be debated for as long as someone's willing to pay a significant premium for it. So let's just agree to disagree, as it appears this discussion is degenerating to questioning one's integrity, rather that AT/NT.

 

It was not my intention to question your integrity although I do believe you took some artistic license with the number of coins you have seen. It just seems to me that your analysis of the toning issue is predominantly anecdotal whereas the posts written by the toning experts on all of the coin forums seem to have a common foundation based on science.

 

No, I'd say the number of fresh out of the bag Morgans I've seen is pretty accurate. Most the dealers I frequented in the 60's & 70's had several bags and went through them quickly. If you read the science of toning, then you know that coin could have been AT'ed. What bothers me the most about the vivid rainbow is the lack of silver oxide, practically impossible to avoid if the coin toned naturally over a long period.

 

That doesn't make any sense. Both AT & NT coins have a silver sulfide layer on the surface of the coin. The vibrancy of the color has nothing to do with whether or not the coin is AT or NT. I have read everything I can on this subject, and everything I have read is contrary to what you are stating. Here is an example from this very forum.

What You Need to Know: The Science of Toning

 

You're right, I should have said sulfide, not oxide. In any case, you'll note that post states silver sulfide is actually black. Before the toning craze, the type of rainbow toning I saw was predominantly blackish toning with rainbow highlights. Isn’t that because over time the toning thickens to produce a blackish color, rather than thinner layers that show as different colors? Never saw one without the predominant blackish color and only rainbow until AT made its debut.