How to stop SGS

First of all, I'd like to say hello. You have a great forum and I wish I found it sooner.

I used to collect as a kid. Now I'm grown up (sorta) and I have decided to start collecting again. My first idea was to search on Ebay, and look for the deals that everyone seems to be missing. With 40,000+ US coin auctions up any given moment, some are sure to fall thru the cracks.

I bought a few and have been happy with the results. Now comes the reason for my post - Ignorace is Bliss.

I bought a SGS MS 70 graded wheat penny. It looks good in the picture, but I'm not sure what is going to arrive. I've already made my mind up to ship it off to ICG or PCGS as soon as it arrives, unless its that blatant of a grade fake. I'll send it back to the seller and get my $ back, or sue for mail fraud if PayPal doesn't resolve it to my satisfaction.

I read through countless posts on SGS and the relationship to EBay, and how the "company" isn't doing anyone a service.

My first thought is class action lawsuit, but it seems that it will be expensive, and fruitless. Still, it couldn't hurt to start a database and track the SGS grading -vs- the legit companies out there. Perhaps with enough evidence we'd get somewhere in the future. If you would like to help, and have bought SGS graded coins that were re-graded, please PM me with the details and I will gladly collect the info.

Second, and more immediately, we should be able to come up with a standard message that can help thwart SGS and similar fakers. We can't include text on an Ebay listing that says SGS sucks, is a front, and should not be trusted. We can say that PCGS,ICG,NGC, and ANACS are the true trustworthy 3rd party graders. If we can come up with a uniform statement to include on an EBay listing, that conforms to Ebay policy, the letters SGS will never be seen preceeding MS 70 on any Ebay listing. It will be voluntary to include the message, but if enough of us use it, it will start to look odd if it isn't there. Potential buyers will become aware of the scam because we will tell them who is legit. We won't say that SGS isn't, but when they don't make the list people will wonder why.

If anyone would like to help, please reply and we'll start working on the disclaimer. With enough occurences on Ebay listings, sellers will start to avoid SGS, and buyers will be warned when they read other non-SGS graded coin listings. It could become a standard signature for Ebay sellers. I'm sure that there are plenty of people here that sell on Ebay. We can get the message out, and we can help correct the market of the SGS and any other scammer problems that may arise in the future.

I'd suggest that the message be short, and include a link the the (not sure of the proper name) Grey Sheet? info that says what graders are reliable. Perhaps someone that is more knowledgable of the grading standards will be able to pick it up from here.

I just wanted to get the ball rolling on an organized effort to keep this hobby safe for everyone.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Welcome to the forum!

There are 2 items in the Coin Talk forums that really get me going...well actually three if you count the political threads, but that is a whole another discussion that you have to "opt in" for. :whistle:

One is fighting to return a depiction of liberty to our coins, especially for the dollar coins in lieu of the presidential dollar series that our elected officials forced down the numismatic community and the other is the pseudo-grading companies like Star Grading Service (SGS) who is owned and operated by Aboncom, the eBay powerseller that markets and packages his own coins.

Please note that they are NOT a grading service or company. They are nothing more than a dealer that packages and markets their own coins with "gold tape" and bogus C.O.A's. It is just like that commerical depicting unethical stock traders:

"You know what to do...put some lipstick on that pig and sell it!"

I really want to keep the lawyers out of the mix. What I have been doing is blowing my horn in a number of coin forums about the likes of SGS. :loud:

My goal is that if anybody "googles" SGS, they would find these forums so collectors can LEARN about what is happening in the marketplace. It is not just SGS, but you will find and entire alphabet of "grading" companies putting lipstick on coins in order to sell them.

I will not confirm nor deny I have done this, but the thought of sending emails to recent buyers of SGS coins had this type of message:

"FYI...SGS is owned and operated by the eBay powerseller Aboncom. In other words, you may think you are getting an independent third party graded/authenticated coin, but for 99% of these coins, this is NOT the case. Don't believe me? Google SGS and see what some of the coin forums say about this company. Pass the word."

It is rewarding to receive emails from other collectors with a statement like, "Thanks...you saved my butt, I had no idea!!"

By coming to Coin Talk, you have taken a huge step in educating yourself on everything coin related (plus some). Education and word of mouth is the key.

Pass it on...

BTW...Why do I have it in for SGS? Well, back in 2003, I bought $50 worth of 2003 PR70 faded "3" Lincolns and spent over $50. Everything looked great just like all of Aboncom's listings. I showed these coins at a coin meeting and was laughed out of the place...especially paying over $50 for these two coins. Upon investigation, I found forums like this who confirmed my mistake.

I have been on the war path since.

 

SGS is advertising that they are a grading company. I took this from their website:

"SGS is a coin grading
company with the
highest standards of
quality and integrity. " - http://www.stargrading.org/

What they are, and what they advertise they are are two completely different stories. There has got to be a way to legally prove that they (he) is/are a fraud.

There are standards in place to grade coins. He is not following the standards, but is "certifying" that the coins are graded to those standards. We all know what a MS 70 is. Its been defined. I really fail to see how he isn't blatantly committing fraud.

 

Really SGS is a grading Co...you don't have to be a TPG to be a grading Co.
I would disagree with the statement about highest standards.
I don't like SGS any more than you do....but the fact is that grading is subjective....and ones person MS65 is another MS64..that doesn't mean that they aren't good graders...it just shows that they both grade different...and there isn't a law that says you can't be different.
So what I'm trying to say is that SGS can't be sued for much...and not fraud...to some people they might be right in line...there isn't any way to really say that they must go by ONE guide to grade.

I'm not saying you are wrong....in fact I wish we could do something about this topic....but to the best of my understanding and from what I read of other people...all it would come to would be a lost of your money to sue them.

Keep up the good work...maybe there is something that we have missed that you can find!

Speedy

 

SGS isn't, by definition, a 3rd party grading service, when only two parties are involved. I have bought some nickels from SGS, but I knew what I was getting into before I bid. Needless to say, the first thing I did when I got them was throw away the gold label.

Mr. Christopher, I would like nothing more than to see Abon stopped, but a suit really isn't the way to go. Too much money, too many complications for an overgraded wheat penny. (Until, of course, SGS and Aboncom **** off a retired rich guy who has nothing better to do than sue their *****.) I agree with others, The best way is to warn others to avoid the gold labels.

Educated numismatists know to avoid SGS, but it would be very hard convincing the Feds that this is fraud. After all, isn't all grading by any company subjective to a certain point?

 

I don't know speedy... In my opinion, SGS satisfies the definition of fraud by example. While it's true that grading is subjective, I think there is a clear line between subjective and deceptive.

When someone intentionally mocks up a grading service to create a perception of trust and legitimacy, when it clearly does not exist in reality, I think that's fraud.

As far as law suits and what not, I could not agree with you more - it would probably be throwing good money after bad. But eventually it will happen, and this guy will have to answer for his actions.

A number of 'firms' were taken down in the 80's for this very same practice of deception in sales - what boils down to selling overstated coins at multiple times their true market value. Point is, you can't wrong people for a living, and think you are exempt from the possible backlash.

 

here here!

educated numismatists know to avoid him, and ethical educated numismatists spread the word!

 

Here's my argument - everything in quotes is from the website below:

http://www.hartley.com/natfraud.htm

"In common usage, fraud and deceit are synonyms for lying or fooling another person as to the correct identity of a person or thing."

SGS is lying and misrepresenting the condition of valuable items.

"Fraud as a tort (i.e., a civil wrong exclusive of contract which entitles a plaintiff to recover damages) has recently been defined by the California Supreme Court as follows: (a) misrepresentation (false representation, concealment, or nondisclosure);

(b) knowledge of falsity (or "scienter");

(c) intent to defraud, i.e., to induce reliance;

(d) justifiable reliance; and

(e) resulting damage."

SGS is intending to defraud. he hides behind the notion that grading coins is subjective. While it is subjective to the rest of the world, the fact that he grades his own coins to intentionally sell them for inflated prices should be enugh on its own. Damages are the easy part. Advertising an MS 70 coin that is actually worth much less causes the buyer to sustain an instant loss, regardless of the purchase price.

"First, the "intent to defraud" is actually an intent to induce reliance, to make the other party rely on the false statement. "

The buyers see that the coins are "slabbed" and rated mint strike 68+, and then bid accordingly.

"Next, the party hearing the misrepresentation must actually and justifiably rely on the misrepresentation. "

If its advertised as a diamond, certified as a diamond, but turns out to be CZ ........

Buyers rely on the grade. I could see if the grade was SGS 70 ... very different from the commonly accepted MS 70. I might not be able to ID a MS 70 from a MS 67, but I know what the difference is, and I can look up the values in a book.

"Finally, there must be monetary damages caused by the fraud."

The purchase price doesn't mean that it is the value of a coin. No reserve auctions always have the risk that the seller won't get what the coin is worth. The buyer might pay a fraction of the real value of a MS 70 coin, but when a MS 65 coin arrives, its not what the buyer paid for.

This scammer intentionally misrepresents the grade of coins to influence higher resale prices. The fact that he grades, and then resells the coins without disclosing the fact that he was the grader might be the key to the puzzle ... search Ebay for "coin sgs" There is no disclaimer that SGS and the seller aboncom are the same. That alone should serve as proof of fraud. 3rd party? hardly.

I'm talking to my lawyer within the next few days.

 

Before I get too fired up, where is the proof that aboncom is the owner of sgs?

 

I just did another Whois query. One on Abon.com and one for Stargrading.org The results are in the attached WORD document file link.

ABON_SGS.doc

Just check the addresses and phone numbers associated with each.

 

Hi Mr_Christopher, and welcome to the form... Im one of those that are just learning.. and Im one of those that got coins from them... five in fact.. and it's the only graded ones I do have. so I can't say if they are what they should be or not, but I can tell you the packs they came in were dirty, very dirty.. they have hair or whiskers or something in them, one even has part of a bug in it. O Yuck
If I want to look at them, I have to shake the stuff sealed in with them off, just to see the coin..
I won't buy from aboncom again...

 

Run that address through InterNic WhoIs and you get:
Registrant Name:Larry Bence
Registrant Organization:Star Grading Service
Registrant Street1:115 Park Ave West
Registrant Street2:
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Mansfield
Registrant State/Province:OH
Registrant Postal Code:44902
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:+1.4195225346Registrant Phone Ext.:120
Registrant FAX:+1.4195226379
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Registrant Email:lbence@abon.com

For www.abon.com information, you have to go through directNIC and you get:
Registrant:

Abon Limited
115 Park Ave. West
Mansfield, OH 44902
US
419-522-5346

 

Anyone who lives in the area (Mansfield) ever gone to the address and tried to meet the guy? Does he have a brick and mortar store? Would be interesting if someone lived close enough to just go check it out.

 

Hi guy,,,
me i'm from Paris in France and like others guys, i bought some of Kennedy halves on ebay with SGS slabs and you know what.... the only only thing i would like to do is to sell back on ebay because i was a foolish man to feel free to buy some!!!! but i have my conscience who say "don't do that" because a foolish man like me will buy them and in the final one other guy will be disapointed like me so guys .....
DON'T BUY WITH SGS SLAB ANY COINS!!!!!!!!!
nicholas

 

Wait guys, I think there is a miscommunication.

Maybe the name of the company is SGS MS-70.

 

yeah that's right!!!!!

 

I am new here, but not to coins and collecting. I have noticed this seller and his coins for a long time. I have also noticed that the buyers are catching on, and that fewer people are buying his fAKE products. I have never bought coins from him, but I am, none the less, as torqued off about the whole mess as anyone else. I knew that there was no way that this SGS company could walk onto the scene and start grading coins and immediately end up with the high grades for the coins that he sells. I hope there is something that can be done about it. It is bad for our hobby..... What makes it worse is that the "new guy" that doesn't know any better is the one that really gets hurt, and then he gets out of the hobby all together. I am not sure how it can be approached because it is "subjective", but I hope for the sake of the hobby that guys like this can be shut down. There is no room for people like this in our hobby. I think that we can make a difference by bringing it to "light" but how many newbies are going to get burned while lining this ***holes pockets??? Eats me alive, I will go now and meditate, and take a nitro.... My bloodpressure is rising, the more I think about it!!!

:headbang:

 

I for one,am doing my part by not buying STAR GRADING SERVICE COINS.when buying Ms 63 to66 silver dollars I onlt buy NGC OR PCGS.Rven then there ugly coins that make the grade,so for my personal collection I never buy sight unseen.