Do I have to legally return the money?? Help!!!! Am I Going to Jail?

Yes, if he tried to buy something with these coins and used them as "money" it would fall under this catagory. This is the critical difference. This law is meant to stop the use of counterfeit circulating money, not counterfeit collectible tokens. I do not believe this article covers this example, but who knows.

 

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I think this section applies better to the OP's situation and seems to require a fore knowledge of coins being counterfeit.

Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person, or attempts the commission of any offense described in this paragraph—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both.

 

Just curious, but how can it NOT cover this instance? "20 silver panda coins" -

Coins with denominations are not tokens.

 

Actually this would be more appropriate but note, there has to be intent to defraud and it has to be demonstrated the actor "Knowingly" passed the counterfeit. The honorable thing to do is make it right and take your lumps, criminally not much there, good luck finding a DA to prosecute, the shop could get a judgement in a civil suit, but if it is like most states a judgement means doodly. Hopefully the OP just does the right thing. If they don't have all the money now work out a payment plan;

§ 485. Coins or bars



Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar in resemblance or similitude of any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents or any gold or silver bar coined or stamped at any mint or assay office of the United States, or in resemblance or similitude of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or in actual use and circulation as money within the United States; or
Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person, or attempts the commission of any offense described in this paragraph—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both.

 

Just where does it say or so much as imply that?

 

knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with intent to defraud

 

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000485----000-.html

 

All things considered , I don't believe the " Dealer " will be pursuing this in the courts. The Dealers Insurance policy may contain provisions for this type of " Loss " . My neighbor is a partner in a high profile Law Firm , here in Albany . I'll bend his ear about this situation and get a feel for who needs to keep their running shoes on.

 

If or when you talk to your neighbor, be sure to mention Nevek said "I asked them if they would want to buy more and the said hell yes, so I placed another order with china for the same coins," My guess is that is going to be his only hope for an out.

 

How does one buy such a large quantity (any quantity for that mater) of silver (for what, 33% under spot?) and not smell a rat. Or did the North Pole somehow get moved to Bejing? Sounds to me like there's skunks on both ends.......

 

Something like this happened to a dealer that I know last year......He bought some silver bullion that turned out to be fake. The dealer said that if He were to take civil action, the burden of proof would be on He himself to prove intent to defraud. (no easy task for any attorney)

If what the OP is saying is true....I think the dealer is indeed sol. In the heat of the moment I can see how easy it would be for the dealer to assume that this incident would be an "open and shut" case, and that just because the coins were phony, almost any judge would rule in their favor.

Let the dealer talk to an attorney as well, and they`re going to find out real fast that this is a loser.

If it were me, I would not even retain a lawyer, (as someone stated earlier, an attorney will take a good chunk out of Him, win or lose) and tell the dealer....See You in court.

 

TD I am enjoying all that Mexican bullion and Peso's I bought from you last year. The much enhanched value, brings a smile to my face. How are ya today pardner ???

I guess in the final anyalsis, its what you will have to say to St. Peter at the Golden Gates that matters.

 

I added bolding to the points that I find of key relevence to determining liability. This pulls the context of all of the OP's claims together at once.

1) There were FOUR transactions:
a) OP bought 20 coins from China.
b) OP sold 20 Pandas to store.
c) OP bought 240 coins from China.
d) OP sold 240 Pandas to store.

The key to all of this is representation of the product. It's what Conder's assessment relies upon. (Great catch, BTW, Conder!) When the dealer offered to buy all the Pandas (silver bullion issued by the Chinese government) that you could offer at $35 per, the verbal agreement was to purchase Pandas @ $35 per. Note, this isn't a contract, per se, as it's open-ended. Upon delivery, the dealer's covenant to purchase was completed when the dealer purchased 240 Pandas from you at $35 each. If at a later time, it is discovered that the coins you sold weren't Pandas, you would be obligated to accept them in return. The dealer has an equal obligation to the purchaser of the 70/50 (your numbers change) Pandas. I don't expect the dealer would have any problem finding this individual, since the customer (ultimate buyer) had reserved an order for 70/50 Pandas. The dealer should therefore have their contact information.

The dealer probably shouldn't have sold the coins (holding period on second hand precious metals laws -- Hawaii's is 15 days), but that doesn't remove your responsibility for selling counterfeit coins. While it might suck that you'll eventually be out $3600/$3900/$6000/$6300/$6500 (depending on which of your various numbers are used: $15/$25, 240/260 coins), the onus of caveat emptor rests solely on you. The dealer has recourse to seek fraud charges against you (and there is no statute of limitations on fraud). Your recourse is to return the money on the coins you sold. Ideally, you would have some way to prove whether the coins you receive back are the ones you sold, but again, that onus is on you. If you're able to prove at a later date that the dealer returned different coins to you, then the process would be basically reversed, since the fraud would then be transacting in the opposite direction.

Regardless of this all, the story seems manufactured. (There, since no one else was willing to say it, I did.) Oh, and as for the used car dealer analogy... at least in Hawaii, we do have lemon laws. So, if someone sells a lemon, there is a certain amount of time during which the buyer can file a grievance and get a refund. As such, it applies in certain jurisdictions.

Again, the expert never told you that the 240 you bought were real prior to your purchasing. The "experts" (per your own post) told you that the original batch of 20 were real. Again, that doesn't even make sense, as I can honestly say that I've never seen an acid test done on silver coins. It's _sometimes_ done on larger silver pieces (art, dishes, trays, bowls, etc), but only when the piece is large enough that the file marks can be done in a place where a future purchaser wouldn't be absolutely ****ed.

That's another thing that doesn't make sense... You said the buyer knew the coins came from China. Did you expressly tell them that you were paying below spot in the current market for the coins from China? After all, I know that real Pandas come from China (as do fake ones). They're Chinese bullion! It's irrelevant to the final outcome, since the dealer shouldn't be concerned about the origin of the coins, since you're in the US and giving assurance that they are actual Chinese Pandas.

 

Nice recap NorthKorea. Sums it up pretty well I think..and yep, "the story seems manufactured", I'm sure others are thinking the same thing that you are! Manufactured.. or maybe a few details omitted? Or something along those lines..

I think the OP has dropped off of this thread? Haven't seen any more responses/questions.. Seems to be 'something going around' lately, as there have been a few of these threads recently.

Lucy

 

Life is good here in sunny So Cal, I've been enjoying the big run up in silver dollars on the CDN. While working the table at the LB show I snagged up every MS63 and MS64 I could find in a PCGS/NGC holder and upon returing I hit every BIN for any and every MS64 below $55 and every MS63 below $40. Now that the CDN is shows common MS64's at $80 bid and MS63's at $55 I'm sitting on a clean 40% to 60% ROI. Seemed a no-brainer when bullion prices more than doubled while CDN prices didn't budge an inch. By my calculations, MS64's should, all things being equal, trade around $120 or so and MS63's should be around $80-$90. I'd say be summer we'll be there.

 

Cuanto Amigo ????

 

lests see, they sold 70 pieces, and made money on them.
but they want all the money back from you?

and they'll 'kindly' let those go since they are 'in circulation'.

so, it was okay for them?

uh, who is kidding who.

 

You need to see a lawyer. Looks like you screwed up big time.

You should have never ordered from China. There is no easy ride in Numismatics.

 

Ha ha!!! That's rich! You must have me confused with some other Troll, my record is spotless. But thanks for the laugh!