Do I have to legally return the money?? Help!!!! Am I Going to Jail?

I agree. There are also many detailed guides available to identify a fake panda.

OP, did the fake pandas even have the denomination printed on them??

 

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You need to call a lawyer. You can probably get away with it if you sold an item they agreed to buy. If it was counterfeit American money you would be a lot more screwed. It could wind up being a civil matter. Either way you are going to end up screwed here. NEVER buy from china.

Gotta admit though I don't feel like you had "no idea" these coins were fake.

 

Acid on a coin. . . . . . At coin shows I've seen dealers use some kind of electrical device to verify PM content.

I'd like to check out the link to that website assuming it was a web purchase.

 

Did you buy these coins from a chinese seller on ebay? Fake silver Panda coin auctions are rampant on the bay.

 

Video, testing for silver plated Pandas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIwytQ-8A4s&feature=related

 

You sold an item that you did not have valid title to or which you could not pass on a valid title to. Therefor there was no legal sale and the dealer is entitled to his money back, but he has to return all the coins. He is not entitled to a refund on coins he can't return. The fact that he is the "expert" and that he agreed to the purchase are not material. That you did not know they were fake and that he tested them before acceptance should protect you from any charges of fraud.

As for the Used car dealer analogy, it is flawed. Would he be able to get a refund because you sold him a lemon? No. Could he get a refund because you sold him a car you didn't have proper title to? You bet. And that is the problem with these pandas, no valid title.

 

Valid title??? Im not sure I follow. If something was bought like lets say at an estate sale, or a garage sale, or just from a friend.....If you bought something fake then you still wouldnt have a recp to prove you bought it or it was sold.......I dont see how this applies considering most coin shops when you deal with cash dont give receipts anyways. At least the ones around here dont.

 

The OP says he has paperwork from the coin shop, and he presumably has electronic paperwork for the orders from China. Conder, are you saying that he didn't have ownership of the rounds (I'm avoiding the term "title" because I don't know its precise legal connotations) just because he was deceived about their composition?

 

It is like opium. You may have all the paperwork in the world to prove it is yours, but it is illegal to own or sell. When you try to sell to your local user and he screws you, no court in the world is going to tell the user he has to pay you. Counterfeit coins may not be illegal to own, but they are illegal to sell - unless you tell them they are counterfeit.

 

Many Dealers are quickly shying away from dealing on a " Cash " Basis. IRS and Audit's . All the OP's paperwork from the china seller may or may not support the Op's intentions . I find it unbelievable that a dealer would take the time to sit down , write a check for eight thousand dollars , without first examining every single piece . There's more to this story than what we are hearing .

 

I believe if someone unknowingly uses counterfeit money in a transaction that person is legally responsible for the counterfeit money.

"Oops, I didn't know it was counterfeit!" doesn't cut it with the courts.

In this case I don't think the used car purchase analogy applies.

 

I think the FBI would trace these counterfeits back to the original owner, in this case the OP, confiscate them where ever they are and the courts order the OP to refund the fraudulent purchase. Since our laws are not enforceable overseas, the blame will stop with the OP. If he doesn't comply, he could be charged with interfering with due process. The dealer will have to find the new owners, if they exist, and refund their purchases as well. These sales will be part of the charge back settlement to the OP. Since there is no clear intent to defraud by anyone, the case will be dismissed at that point.

 

I'm staying out of this one because 95% of the respondents in the other thread refused to listen to the correct advice.

Chris

 

What I find most interesting is , that in both this situation and the previous one , both OP's were New Members . Now that may say something and it may not., but at the very least , curious. Ultimately , I don't believe we will hear all the Facts or the final outcome. Crazy stories for sure. I think the scale of law , is on the side of the Dealer on this one. Just a third party opinion.

 

If these stories are even real and if we have all the facts, what benefit does the OP have to our opinions? It's going to be decided in the courts. Why he is not getting actual advise from council makes me wonder. Is this just a test case scenario or another "what if" argument? I like all you girls and guys, but who in their right mind would come here for legal advise of this magnitude? IMHO.

 

I'm not sure these qualify as "counterfeit" coins. They are coins from China, sold as coins from China, and remain undisputedly coins from China. There are no US laws which regulate the composition of Chinese coins, so I don't think the OP has any worry about being tagged for selling counterfeit coins.

 

You mean "There are no US laws which regulate the composition of coins while in China." There definitely is when those coins reach American soil

 

Yes and no. The US laws only apply to US coins. There are NO laws detailing the composition of foreign coins.

I will rephrase my reply to be more specific. The US laws apply to coins that look like US coins and require they have the word "copy" or "replica" on them. There are no laws for coins that do not resemble US coins (ie- foreign coins). Take for instance fantasy coins like the 1964-D Peace dollars or a 2009 Proof Eagle, they can be composed of any material and will come under no US law since they are not a US issue and have no resemblance to any official US coin. Foreign coins would fall under this heading, too.

 

Someone is feeding you BS.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000486----000-.html