Was my coin graded improperly by PCGS?

And Bag marks are not scratches and wear is not damage? The difference between an MS coin and a VG coin is damage. And if the coin was worn to the point of being a G with the scratch wiped out, is it now worth more or worth less?

Heck, it has a scratch that Zane didn't even see. Lets just throw the coin into circulation for the face value.

Ruben

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Hi,
To get a PL or DMPL designation, the coin has to have the required reflectivity on both the obverse and the reverse. From the pics, it may be that the reverse would make it but the obverse looks weaker from the perspective of reflectivity.
Have Fun,
Bill

 

As GD has already said...there is a big difference....bag marks aren't the same as wear...you will learn that when you study grading, as I hope you do and will...and the difference from a MS or VG is NOT damage...it is circulation, NOT damage.

Your not thinking ....do some research and reading on grading and I'm sure you will see how that a scratch can make a coin damaged whereas a bag mark isn't damage.
May I suggest reading this online book...its free.
http://www.coingrading.com/

Speedy

 

PL, I'd say.

 

Its not me and I don't think any research is going to change my mind on this. I have a problem with the whole way coins are graded.

Wear IS damage. Toning is damage. There is some perfect ideal that a coin has. All deviations from this ideal, either by normal wear, which ***is*** damage, a scratch, which is more acute damage, or even from a poor strike such as a 'O' Morgan or Peace Dollar.

Grading ***should be*** some kind of linear (or logrithmic) offset of that perfection.

When your 80 will you feel better if your MD tells you not to worry that heart is just "worn out a little". Maybe its my grounding in Medicine and Research but in my book, damage is damage. When blood can't flow through that coronary artery, your not going to care if its normal wear or a sudden (acute) trama. I have no idea why it matters with coins. I do know that grading otherwise is non-objective and fraught with politics. It is highly unscientific.

Ruben

 

BTW Speedy, thanks for the book tip. This gives me an idea....it might be time to take the human element out of coin grading.

 

It's not a matter of thinking differently, but thinking objectively.

This doesn't hold up to objective evaluation. There is no "natual" coin. (there are no more natural apples either but that is a different discussion). It is pure and unprovable speculation where any deviation from perfection is obtained. You have no clue if it is in the mint, in the bag, in the truck, in storage at the treasury, or because the coin fell on the subway plaform.

What you do have is a coin which is measurably and objectively deviant from an asumed perfect state. This is the first rule of scientific observation. Observe and measure what is in front of you with defined precision and accuracy.

Consider this, within the FIRST page of the linked book!

"To put things into better perspective. in fewer than 15 years, a MINT STATE-65 coin has gone from being an above average mint state coin (approximately I out of 2 or 3) to being a choice or gem coin (perhaps I out of 25!). The reason for this change is that there has never been a standard for grading mint state coins. If the pricing guides said that a MINT STATE-65 Barber Quarter was worth $3,000, then a Barber Quarter worth $3,000 was "today's" Mint State-65. That didn't mean the same coin would be tomorrow's MINT STATE-65, when the pricing guides say $5,000, nor did it mean that coin was last year's MINT STATE-65, when the pricing guides listed MS-65 Barber Quarters at $2,000."

Consider this the next time you bid for a coin in an old PCGS slab...

Doug, experienced fellows like you and I know that 15 years is a blink of an eye.

There is to much effort and time wasted on making subjective evaluations on damage. So a MS68 1881 Morgan O is not held to the same standards as a 1881P because of weak strikes.

Man, aside from the fact that weak strikes are UGLY, let the grading BE. If there are no MS69 coins from New Orlean's, the MARKET can worry about the value. The grader needs to plainly grade off of the one and only objective standard.

The whole MS needs to be taken away for the grade. The grade is 68, or 70, or 58 because of a sratch... not body bagged.

The only time a coin should be body bagged is when it was artificially enhanced, or damaged with the intention to fool the buyer (ie Whizzing it)

Ruben

 

Ya know what?...I'm not going to disagree with everything you said here....Grading shouldn't be like it is....right now we have guides and standers coming out of our ears....if there was ONE it would be TONS better but untill that happens anyone that sells or buys coins MUST keep up with the market or lose their $$$---unless they are "lucky".
I'm sure you've seen it....I think you are into Progaming and such...now how many people come in and say...Programing is too hard...it should just be some words typed in and that is all...not all of this code?
Now you might call that kind of people lazy....but programing and grading are just alike....and people that don't want to learn (sorry...I don't mean to sound rude) aren't the collectors they think they are....they DON'T care about coins...all they care about is that they make a fast $.

Speedy

 

**********

 

Computer programming is determined by computer science and the Turing prinicple. It is at its core pure mathmatics.

Regardless of the syntax, the concepts are the same and there is always debate about which programming languages, syntacically and under the hood are better, more correct. The people who say that computers should just do what they are told in natural language are 100% correct! In fact, more than a few liguists have taken a crack at programming whole programming launguages to make them more like natural speech. The fact that their is yet no high level natural language programming language is clearly a problem and inexcusable deficiency in modern computing.

I have no idea what this has to do with objective grading.

Either way they learn if they collect. There is also the issue of GRADING and determining VALUE. These are different things.


Ruben

 

whats too lose. I would have sent both..

 

How much do you pay for this?
http://coins.heritagegalleries.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=26022&Lot_No=11382#Photo

 

Coin Grading is determined by experts and the market...

I don't think I ever said grading and value are anywhere near the same thing...but the grade does help collectors know what they should pay.
But really even the grade can't help us find a vaule of some coins....I've spent well over market value for coins I've needed...

I agree that people learn when they collect....and I suggest hands on grading...but if you just sit on a book and think that your brain will get the know-how or you just collect but never pick up a book...you aren't going to be as good as you could be (and I'm just useing the term you...I'm not meaning You as in you )
I like to build raw HTML websites...but just this month I have picked up some books and have been looking through them...now that I know a little more I can do TONS better and faster than I ever could before...grading is the SAME way.

I didn't pay one red cent....but that is one Dog-gone great coin!!!...if I would have had the money I might have been biding.
Maybe you meant what I said here....

I didn't mean that grading is what makes the price....but you have to agree that if you send a coin to NGC and it comes back MS68 and you send it to PCGS and it comes back MS69PL there would be a much bigger market for the coin....when there is a bigger market there is a larger value...when there are 2+ grading guides and no one knows what one is right there is a mix up on what price to pay.
That is why you must keep up with the market...on grading....on pricing...on selling and on buying---if you don't...you will lose more than $$$.

I think there is a time in every collectors life that he must buy coins just for resale...now if you had to do that and you had 2 coins to pick from what one would you pick....a 1959 Roose Dime in MS68 or a 1899-S MS65 SIlver Dollar?....they are both the same prices lets say...and are both graded by NGC...
If you have kept up with the market you will know that a Morgan Dollar has a larger market and there is more of a chance to sell it for more than its full value than a Roose dime.
I know what wasn't the best example....but after being sick (almost back to normal...haha...I'm never normal) I'm not in the mood to sit here and try to think up a better one

I hope you know I'm not trying to be rude...or anything like that....grading is a hard topic and people talk about it everyday....but to be a good collector/dealer you need to learn the market! (and when you learn the market you learn...grading...selling...buying...and much much more!)

Speedy

 

Hi,
I'm gonna throw a few other things into the damage vs. wear debate. Let's start with a circulated coin. For me, it is simple to determine what is damage vs. wear. Let us consider a VG (Very Good) graded coin. (The principle is the same no matter what the circulated grade is) If everything is evenly worn, and details are obliterated to an extent based upon normal wear and tear from circulation, I do not consider each little nick and line as damage. It is assumed based upon the VG (Very Good) grade, that the coin has seen circulation and as a result, has been worn to a point that I have subjectively decided as a grader is a VG (Very Good).

Now, take that same coin and on it you see a deep gouge or a deep scratch that has gone beyond what we might guess (Yes, it is a subjective guess) is a result of the normal wear on the coin and you have what I would consider damage. We've all seen it. An evenly worn coin, for example that has been on a parking lot surface. We can grade the coin, based on it's state of preservation but if it was scratched up by virtue of being driven over a few times, it is damaged. This also assumes the fact that being driven over is not "normal" wear and tear in the circulation of a coin. Circulation does not equal damage although if one gets technical, each little thing that occurs to a coin is a damage and one might argue that the accumulation of all the little damages is what causes the grade to be whatever the grade is. It is a matter of semantics to an extent. What is generally accepted as damage on a circulated coin is something that appears to be beyond the realms of normal, even wear.

On an Uncirculated coin, I grade a coin by looking at details, luster, strike, eye appeal etc. and then apply known standards of grading to subjectively decide whether a not a coin is an MS-62 or an MS-63, for example. An uncirculated coin has degrees of preservation that can be described. I then subjectively decide if a coin meets the specifications required to reach the pre determined standard for that grade.

When looking for damage on an MS coin, you look for something not within the realms of the minting and normal delivery process that detracts from the appearance of a coin. As ugly as a bag mark might be, I do not cosider it damage. Of course, we cant prove whether or not a coin has been" bag marked" in a hopper at the mint, in a bag, or on a dealer's counter but it is an accepted part of the minting process so is generally not viewed as damage. It will affect the grade, of course, but is still considered omething that is assumed to be part of the minting process and delivery system.

Some nicks and scratches are easily identifiable as bag marks. We've all seen coins with marks that were made by the reeded edge of one coin crashing into the field of another. Other marks that we have become familiar with can be determined to be normal too.

When I see a scratch or mark on a coin that has altered the appearance of the coin and does not look like what we've learned to be normal is damage. I include rim-dings as damage, although they may have occured in a bag or in the mint hopper but I can't tell if that was the case or if someone dropped the coin after it left the mint. If i see a coin that is of a high state of preservation and it has some form of meandering scratch on it that would not be the result of two coins banging into each other in a bag, that's a damage. Examples of what I consider damage would be things like hairlines caused by someone rubbing a coin with a cloth that leaves small lines on the surface of the coin. These small abrasions (lines) can disrupt the normal flow lines of the metal and they are noticeable. To me , they are a damage.

It is subjective, as all grading is but experience in grading hundreds or thousands of coins teaches us what is "normal" and what is a gouge created by a staple that held a cardboard 2X2 closed. Actually, there are thousands of coins out there that have marks made by staples, caused by people taking coins out of or putting them into 2X2 holders. They are so common that they are easily identifiable as damage.

Again, grading is subjective and in some cases deciding what is and what isn't damage is guesswork. I'll admit that. Most times however, damage is easily distinguished from what would be expected on a coin. The more coins you see with damage vs. wear, the easier it becomes to tell the difference.

Have Fun,
Bill

 

One decent software program can revolutionize the entire grading industry.

It just takes the right scanner and the right objective standards.

Ruben

 

Everything you wrote here, and I appreciate your input on this topic, is subjective. I do not concede the primary argument that you make ie: That one kind of damage is in any way preferable to any other kind of damage. that is inherently subjective. I'll take a highly detailed coin with a big old scratch over it any day over a worn out G coin. While it is not possible to remove ALL subjectivity from grading, it is possible to actually measure how deep scratches are, their length, and to determine how much of the image has been damaged by wear, a bad strike or other damage.


These are all QUANITIFIABLE. We must leave the qualitative analysis for the market.


Ruben

 

hehe....well at least Midas will be happy...sometime will agree with him at last!
I take you never have read the threads on here (search for them) on Computer Grading?
If not please do....Computer grading was tried one....and it didn't work....
I'm not going to get into this topic again as you can read my posts and see what I and many others I've talked to think.....

Speedy