Earliest EL coins reverses

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by I_v_a_n, Dec 7, 2022.

  1. I_v_a_n

    I_v_a_n Well-Known Member

    I believe, many of us realize that the design of the reverses of some types of earliest electrum coins is something more than just an "irregular pattern".

    For the first step I've found a publication of VII c. BC lydian terracotta seal which wakes-up a direct associations with some coins reverses from that period and place.

    Seal & coins.jpg

    This belief pushed me for second step with investigation of one unique type electrum staters generally known as "Borysthenes staters". Theirs incuses images consist of clear wedges which can be associates with Ancient East cuneiform writting systems. It drowned me for long time into Assirian-Median-Scythian-Persian history learning from which I emerged with conviction I've found a sample of cuneiform logogram "KING" at reverse of electrum stater. Looks too ambicious to be true....

    Scythian stater.jpg
    Logo.jpg

    But recently appeared in public sales inscribed hektes with smooth obverse surface brings a surprise inside reverse incuse - absolutely clear sample of what to be believed an ancient Median cuneiform logogram "KING".

    Hecte подписаная_image24985.jpg

    And for third step. I believe this discovery opens a new space for better understanding of some relating emissions.

    Relating.jpg

    P.S. For those who like long reading a link to my full article at academia: https://www.academia.edu/36821881/Electrum_coin_of_the_scythians

    All the comments and ideas are welcome!
     
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Interesting! I'd say that terracotta seal is pretty compelling evidence there was some "method to the madness", and that the marks weren't random or irregular.

    This one isn't electrum, but I long thought there was something going on with those shapes inside those punches. I have no idea what they represent, but they look more than random to me.

    [​IMG]


    This one is electrum, but the punch seems simpler and more just basically geometric in this case. Still, why a quadripartite punch and not something else?
    [​IMG]
     
  4. expat

    expat Remember you are unique, just like everyone else Supporter

    When you look at more modern coinage, say from 12 century onward, regions, states and nations started to portray a style of " Coat of Arms" which often contain a shield divided into 4 with each quadrant containing an image of which carry importance. Makes me think that something similar was happening way before with some local, historical or mythological importance attached to the contents of the incuse quadripartites. Just a thought
     
    galba68, panzerman and lordmarcovan like this.
  5. Nicholas Molinari

    Nicholas Molinari Well-Known Member

    I think you should consider submitting to Koinon!
     
  6. I_v_a_n

    I_v_a_n Well-Known Member

    Thank you for the invitation, @Nicholas Molinari ! I'll do it in the coming days.
     
    Nicholas Molinari likes this.
  7. I_v_a_n

    I_v_a_n Well-Known Member

    There are a lot of different punches shapes known: round (first picture at my first message for example); triangular; rectangular, etc. and a most common square due to it simplest fabrication.
    Some types known are with square or rectangular punch divided into two equal parts. A quadripartite punch, I believe, is a technical development of simple square punch with irregular working surface.
     
    panzerman and Pellinore like this.
  8. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Learned a whole lot from your wonderfull post/ thanks!
    A couple of mine earlier types of EL. 22f21163abfb4797e046e668b23d5352 (3).jpg 48b2569bdca0bf1ce3326ce84527df51 (2).jpg df48b751d0ef210dbc49f42ba58a50f4 (3).jpg df48b751d0ef210dbc49f42ba58a50f4 (3).jpg
     

    Attached Files:

    galba68, sand, lordmarcovan and 5 others like this.
  9. I_v_a_n

    I_v_a_n Well-Known Member

    Thank you @panzerman! A great ram hemihecte (I guess...).
     
    panzerman and Nicholas Molinari like this.
  10. I_v_a_n

    I_v_a_n Well-Known Member

    Valuable addition to the topic can be found now in actual Triton sales:
    Lot 246:
    Hecte_Triton_lot_246.jpg

    Lot 247:
    Hecte_Triton_lot_247.jpg

    Here we can see, how even not fast, but momentary, cuneiform logogram can degradate to level of "irregular pattern" if engraver unfamiliar with a sense of symbol.

    From this point of view there are a possibility that this type half-stater can be listed as a bearer of possibly cuneiform smple.

    Hemistater 7,22_NAC Auction 59_lot 616_3250 CHF_1.jpg
     
  11. savitale

    savitale Well-Known Member

    Great topic! I agree that the marks are not random. Cuneiform inspired, at least, makes sense.
     
  12. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Thanks. Its a Hekte/ 1/6 Stater:)
     
    I_v_a_n likes this.
  13. I_v_a_n

    I_v_a_n Well-Known Member

    Thank you @savitale!

    I also put here a map of Asian states circa 600 BC to fix that Medes and Lydians had a common border at river Halys. So, Median cuneiform samples are not faraway from coinage minting centres.

    1279px-Median_Empire.jpg
     
  14. I_v_a_n

    I_v_a_n Well-Known Member

    I've found this old thread to say to you, Nicholas, thank you very much for your incredible help and great work which brings my ideas with poor English to the academic level article published in prestigious numismatic journal.

    The jorney was began from this yours message and after a year of works finally ended up with a great result which wasn't possible to reach without your help every step.

    Thank you very much!

    And for all of our collegues here at CT a link for last volume of KOINON journal:
    https://archaeopresspublishing.com/ojs/index.php/koinon/article/view/2335
     
  15. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    I like those type coins. They look cool when you have no idea what your looking at
     
    panzerman likes this.
  16. Nicholas Molinari

    Nicholas Molinari Well-Known Member

    My pleasure! Incidentally, I was reading Van Alfen’s work in White Gold (on “The State”) and your theory is perfectly consistent with his view, or at least it seems so to me.
     
    Curtis, I_v_a_n and panzerman like this.
  17. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

    I got a broken link from that one, but this may be the page you meant:
    https://archaeopresspublishing.com/ojs/index.php/koinon/issue/view/63

    Congratulations on the article, @I_v_a_n , and the new issue, @Nicholas Molinari !

    Incidentally, this thread reminds me of the genesis of Bob Langnas' Koinon article on the Parthian AR Fractions. (It also began in threads on CoinTalk and Forum -- see especially FAC 111223 [1 May 2017]!)

    To celebrate the release, here's a new Archeloos that I just picked up ( = BCD Akarnania 42):
    BCD Akarnania 42 Rev.jpg
     
  18. Nicholas Molinari

    Nicholas Molinari Well-Known Member

    That is a nice example as far as these types go!

    The link is broken because there was an error in the eBook version when it got transferred from the print document. Should be fixed soon. It is amazing how many small errors get introduced to documents when switching programs from something like Word to InDesign, etc.
     
    I_v_a_n, Curtis and panzerman like this.
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page