I know all of the objections to cleaning coins, and purchasing cleaned coins. But at some price, everything becomes a bargain. In your opinion or in your numismatic business dealings, what is the value of a common date cleaned Morgan or Liberty? What would be a fair price for a cleaned 1885 Morgan dollar in VF condition? How about a cleaned 1904 $20 Liberty in AU condition? Presumably bullion value would be the floor, but do the coins retain any premium for their historical or numismatic value? If they do, is there any "standard" discount to their uncleaned value that can be applied? Thanks.
Cleaning takes a coin down to 50% of its value...if I were you I would go for bullion----that is a far price for the coins anyway and if they won't sell for that count yourself lucky Speedy
orio If that statement applys to US coins, I won't argue because I just don't know. However, on the world coin market it isn't that easy. Example 1 - Substantially all Japanese dragon yen coins (1870-1914) have had at least one cleaning, so it's only exceptionally harsh cleaning, such as whizzing, that brings their value down significantly. Example 2 - Early Meiji Japanese copper (1870-1900) is so abundant in original (dark brown tarnished, but uncleaned) condition, that cleaned specimens are generally worth only 10-25% of what their uncleaned cousins go for unless it's a special case like the low mintage Meiji 6 (1873) 2 sen, which would only suffer a small discount, if any, for an old cleaning. I'm sure the other world coin collectors on the forum could add other examples of disparity in cleaned coin values from their own specialty areas.
Roy That isn't what everyone goes by...that is my own rule...if I have a chance to buy a cleaned coin I pay about 50% of the true value or bullion...NOTE--That is for harsh cleaning. If someone offered me a 1932-D Quarter in F worth about $175 but it had been cleaned I would hope to get it for about $90... Speedy
The reason I ask is that I frequently see circulated Morgan dollars for many dates available in the $9 range that have been cleaned but otherwise look okay for circulated coins. There are also some $20 Liberty gold coins currently selling around $600 that have also been cleaned but are otherwise okay. The prices are lower than what the coins would fetch if they weren't cleaned, but aren't quite as low as bullion value, and I don't know if the discount is enough to make them interesting. I have to be careful because coins that have been lightly cleaned don't bother me at all. But I know that more knowledgeable collectors go berserk over any sort of detectable cleaning, knock the price down mercilessly, and would melt the coins before allowing them into their collections. If some of these coins sold at or below bullion value I'd buy them, but they never seem to get that low, so I've passed them up so far.
CS99- There is no hard rule for this. The reality is that not all collectors over-react to the the cleaning of a coin the way that Speedy does. The 50% discount that he mentions is his personal rule, and with a policy like that I expect that he has VERY few cleaned coins in his collection. They just don't get discounted that much, generally. There are just too many people who are willing to pay better prices than that for cleaned coins. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the look of a cleaned coin and therefore I have very few of them in my collection, but properly described cleaned coins rarely sell for 50% off, there are just too many buyers who are willing to pay more than that. If you are seeing Morgans for $9, then that is about as good as they get. I don't have any experience with buying double eagles, so I'm afraid I can't offer you much help there.
Hey CT I never try to buy cleaned coins...so I don't have many....but at shows a places I do see some cleaned coins marked off that much...and also if you serach you will see that many dealers take off 50% for things such as fingerprints and the like...with bullion being the bottom. As for Morgans...the lowest I've seen is $8 and that is with the date worn off...I've tried to sell them for alittle over $8 but no one much wants them. Speedy
Cloudsweeper99, Even cleaned coins can retain some of their numismatic collectibility and can bring a higher value than bullion prices! That value is dependent upon the mintage, the rarity, the series, the coin and/or bullion market and how bad a person wants or needs the coin for their' collection. I would say, if you can purchase cleaned Morgan and Peace Silver Dollars for $9 each and $20 Gold Pieces for around $600 that are around Fine or better in condition, then you are getting a bargain! Most Coin Dealers around here and at Coin Shows sell cleaned and uncleaned Morgan Silver Dollars for $12 to $16 each and Peace Dollars for $11 to $14 each, that only range from Good to about Fine in condition. Now, where else can you find such a deal as that, when you are buying a coin which has just a little over 3/4's of an ounce of pure Silver in it for $9 and can resell the coin for anywhere from $11 to $16 without doing anything else to promote the coin except possibly 2x2'ing it???!!! Also, cleaned $20 Gold Pieces that are at least Fine in condition, will more than likely fetch a higher price than Gold Spot and even the $600 price that you paid for them! There is also the chance that a few of the coins that you get in the purchase will be semi-key date coins which will fetch even higher prices than common date coins. With the trend of Gold and Silver prices, you could possibly make a bundle on bulk purchases, if you hold onto the coins for awhile and the upwards trend of Gold and Silver prices continues. I purchase some Morgan and Peace SIlver Dollars from time to time and even at Dealer pricing, I still have to pay $10 to $12 each. Morgan Silver Dollars have a greater collectibility and fetch much higher prices than Peace Dollars and would be the best coins to purchase for resell or investment! Frank
One thing here...bullion is more than that for a Morgan dollar...its more like $9.50 per coin....and the price quoted for gold piece here is higher than bullion...by about $50. Just remember...a coin is only worth what you can get out of it... Speedy
Speedy, The big misconception that most folks make, is thinking that a Morgan Silver Dollar has one ounce of pure Silver in it which it does not! While a Troy ounce weighs 31.103 grams, Morgan and even Peace Silver Dollars only weigh 26.73 grams (.859403 of an ounce) and are composed of .900 Silver and .100 Copper which gives them only .77344 of an ounce of pure Silver or 24.0563 grams of pure Silver. The actual Bullion value of the Silver in a Morgan or Peace Silver Dollar is only $7.19 based on the closing price of $9.30 on February 7th. I may have overstated the prices that $20 Gold Pieces should fetch but given the right market(s), they will bring over $600 even when cleaned! The key is in finding the right market(s) and Flea Markets and Gun Shows with high traffic are the best places to sell such coins. I know because a friend of mine sells coins at these and many of his' coins have been cleaned! In these market(s), you are selling not only to a few coin Collectors but also selling to a large, diverse crowd of Silver and Gold coin owner wannabees! This may not seem fair but these folks go to Flea Markets and Gun Shows and very seldom or may never visit a Coin Shop. When many of these folks come across a table with Silver and Gold coins on it, they are drawn to it like a magnet and if the price is within reason, they will buy it. I won't go into the ethics of selling cleaned coins at Flea Markets and Gun Shows to Silver and Gold coin owner wannabees but how many people do you know that have ethics when it comes to making money..?? My friend generally makes $300 to $600 in two days (Saturday and Sunday) but has made as much as $1500 when the traffic is much higher. Besides, I have been slowly weaning my friend from selling cleaned coins to only selling uncleaned and Uncirculated coins and he is coming around! Frank
That I know...but if we are jumping the gold $50 we might as well jump the silver $0.50 Good for you!! Speedy
Thanks everyone, My idea here was to make a silver or gold bullion-type investment that might also have a numismatic "kicker" built into it when compared to something like an ASE/AGE. Circulated and cleaned Morgans and Liberties seem to be the closest thing I can find. Even bullion coins typically sell for more than bullion content, and owning a coin that is at the same time 100+ years old seems to make it a nice combination to me. But I wanted to get a few other opinions. Once a coin is circulated to the point where it is in F/VF condition, I'm not sure if a little cleaning matters much at that point to a lot of people other than purists. I agree with Speedy that an uncirculated coin that otherwise would sell for multiples of the bullion value could be devalued by 50% or more by a noticeable cleaning, and I would avoid that sort of purchase for this purpose. I'm not looking to unload the coins on unsuspecting buyers, but I agree with Huntsman that coins can have different values to different buyers with different intentions at different locations and I don't consider it unethical. Pepsi is less expensive by the case at the supermarket than it is in a cup at a baseball game. Different price, different buyer, different location, different need, different perception of value.
Hi, I'm gonna throw something else into the mix here. With coins, there is a big difference between a harsh cleaning and a careful conservation effort. If a coin is obviously damaged by a cleaning, then the numismatic value is damaged as well. It would be up to the buyer to determine what he is willing to pay for a coin that for most collectors has been damaged and is now questionable with respect to resale. I wouldn't pay 100 bucks, for example, for something that if push comes to shove, the market will only allow me to sell for 10 dollars. On the other hand, a carefully conserved, (still cleaned) but not damaged (hopefully) coin still retains a numismatic value. Collectors of old coppers buy cleaned and conserved coins all the time whether they know it or not. I've seen more dealers than I can count oiling and cleaning with soft brushes, large cents and half cents that they have for sale. They often do this work right in front of you so their is no hiding it. It's up to the buyer but I try to steer clear of cleaned coins in some series and cleaned coins in other series are the norm. Have Fun, Bill PS: I don't think I've ever seen a pure white Morgan or Peace dollar that wasn't dipped.
I'm gonna throw something out here, but you might want to consider foreign stuff too. The US coin market is quite well developed but the darkside market is growing at a phenomenal rate and there are numerous foreign gold coins that trade at/near their bullion price, so an investment in forign gold coins would allow you to get your bullion investment (even on uncleaned coins) with a potentially large numismatic upside too. my 2¢
I have three foreign gold coins; a British, a French and a Swiss. They sold for a modest premium above the gold content and are in uncirculated condition. The dealer told me he could buy them by the truckload, so I don't know how scarce or valuable they will ever be. But foreign gold is another possibility. Thanks for the reminder.
The same is true of $20 Libs! If you went to your dealer and said you have $1 Million that you want to invest in circulated $20 Libeties he would have no problem filling your order! There is just a much more developed market for the U.S. stuff. Either way the important thing is to have fun!
