I have seen many many threads regarding toning and know a lot of the value is based on eye appeal. Is there any such thing as good toning or bad toning? Again the assumption is it is NT not AT.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Many collectors want no toning present on the coin at all, and for many good reasons. Toning may hide flaws that affect the grade of the coin. They want a collection that is uniform looking and, well, flawless. Once a coin starts toning there is no getting that look back. There is no cleaning method that doesn't degrade the coin, and ruin its collector value. That said, there are some very beautiful toned coins! A collector who wants toned coins will pay a high premium for them, over regular graded values. Many collectors store there coins in conditions that will provide nice toning results over years of safe storage. I've seen lots of brown and black toned coins that I personally would not value over metal content. Once you go far enough back in your dates it's hard to avoid though. If you're talking about rainbows, you should be able to know pretty when you see it. Toned coin collectors like the diversity of patinas a coin can achieve, a regular collection is too mundane for them. Some folks view toned coins as a fad, and well, trends come and trends go, but everyone wants the pretty coins...I believe they will continue to command a premium. That said, once a coin starts to tone, it will continue to do so...what was attractive could become very much not so unless they are treated with care.
Yes. Toning that has reached the dark stage, either dark brown or black, is generally considered to be bad because once it reaches that point it typically begins to corrode the coin resulting in surface degredation and pitting.
Don't know if I would go quite so far as to say that. There are literally thousands of coins that have been dipped and their value was exponentially increased as a result of them being dipped. There are countless millions more that have been dipped and their value increased beyond what it was before they were dipped. I will agree with you that dipping a coin does degrade the luster to some degree. But when dipping is done properly that degree is very, very small. And nobody, but nobody, can tell that the coin was dipped - except by using deductive reasoning. That being that any older coin should have at least some toning, so if it doesn't have any toning then it stands to reason that it has been dipped. Whether they know it or not, almost every collector there is owns coins that have been dipped.
Yes, the reason I asked is because i just bout a dime (55 S) on line and he correctly listed it as having LT. I just kind of assumed it would be a positive aspect, but in hand the rim is black and part of the face has some black toning. I do not fault the dealer at all because he listed it as such. So I was wondering if a reputable dealer would some how designate a more positive toning aspect, so in the future I would better understand. I do know now with this dealer that is probably a negative quality to the coin.
I have read about some individuals who were able to purchase high grade coins with unattractive toning and successfully dip them, which in this case would mean selling it for more than they paid. I personally do not know how to do this and would not attempt to do so myself. Blue Whitman folders seem to encourage toning, I collected a circulated statehood quarter set just for the heck of it, and already some of these coins are displaying somewhat of a golden tone. I've heard of wooden storage cabinets and manila envelopes placed in a warm place that generate results. Bank bags too, particularly with Morgan dollars. I've heard that the green tubes that ASEs come in can create very attractive toning. I think anything going beyond environmental storage would be considered artificial toning...come to think of it I found a Canadian quarter in my yard while I was gardening, and the soil had rendered it very dark, but in the right lighting it really does display nice color. For an interesting read do a search on black beauty right here, there are some nickels that have a lustrous deep black tone that make my mouth water.
Just for the sake of clarity, are you suggesting that coins stored in Whitman coin folders, bank bags, coin cabinets, manila envelopes, etc. all should be considered as AT coins ? Just curious, what type of coin is it that you call a Black Beauty ? I ask because in today's world what people call a Black Beauty is a totally different coin than the coin that was called a Black Beauty many years ago - the coin that was the reason for the name. This is what came to be known as a Black Beauty back when the name was invented. No, it's not truly black. But the blue is so dark and rich that when viewed from an angle the coin does indeed look to be black. And there is no question that it is indeed beautiful !
For clarity, I'm saying those are good means of storage if you wish to encourage natural toning....natural toning is a process that takes years, artificial toning takes minutes. Artificial toning to me would be the use of match heads, baking, electrical current, or some application of chemicals. Someone who is out to pull a fast one, in other words. I've done a little research in this area and feel fairly comfortable with identifying most examples of artificial toning, although I may not know what caused it. Bright neon colors, abrupt breaks in color gradients, spotting...a natural tone will look like it permeates the coin, while an artificial tone will float on the surface like a fresh coat of paint. I know there are some real good tone doctors out there that could probably fool me but most of the hack jobs are pretty obvious when you know what to look for. The picture you posted is the one I'm talking about! I find dark nickels from circulated change all the time, but I've never seen in person a real black beauty. Any idea how that kind of toning is achieved? I know that war nickels have a tendency to darken because of their composition but that deep rich blue, that is something else! Okay, I looked up the original post you had on that coin, and no, I wasn't talking about the sinstered planchet, whatever that junk is...I wouldn't want one, even if they are charging $250 on home shopping network or whatever....is that coin artificially toned? You said you knew someone who could do that with AT, I want to know if that is possible naturally. I'm guessing your friend used anodizing? Like this link? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrA7Jyw1uOs
There is a post on one of the forums across the street where a brave soul dipped a butt ugly proof Morgan that had toned in an unattractive way. The end result was a very appealing coin, and if i recall correctly it was purchased at a bargain price, and re holdered at a higher grade. The guy had mucho cojones, and in this case it payed off big time.
To the OP, yes there is very bad toning. Do not ever buy a coin with matte black toning, as this has progressed passed innocent toning and is corrosion. Other than that, coins with ugly toning have been dipped forever, because their toning was unattractive. I have never dipped a coin that I thought the toning was attractive, preferring to leave them alone, but many delaers used to dip every coin with toning regularly. Why? Because toning can hide problems that can be hard to see if the coin is dark, so therefor many collectors only wanted white coins. I have dipped ugly, splotchy brown coins with great success, (and a few failures, you never know what is under the toning, and a few came out with major flaws that were hidden by the color). Bottom line, yes there is bad toning. Learn to read a coins tone, and never touch the matte black damaged coins, many of which I see selling now for a premium since they are "beautifully toned". Glossy black is still ok, but just barely since it is close to corrosion. Any other color and the coin should still be fine, it would be up to you whether you prefer the coin that color or dipped. Btw, regarding dipping, the one application really does little harm to a coin. An "overdipped" coin did not get that way with one application, but by being dipped either improperly or many, many times. I know it is tantamount to heresy nowadays to talk about it, but properly done can really improve a coin. Yes, it is best to store your coins properly so they never have to be dipped, but you cannot change the past and sad to say many coins have been stored improperly. One could even argue ALL toned coins are evidence that they were stored improperly. Chris
Yes - they were knowingly put into those storage containers by human hands. It doesn't get much more intentional than that. Now whether the intent was to tone the coin doesn't matter IMO - TPG's should not be determining ethics based on guesswork IMO of course
No, he didn't use annodizing. And yes, the coin in that picture is NT. And yes, he could turn out coins that looked just like that one in about 4 hrs. And nobody, even the biggest names in the buisness, could tell one from the other. He even got some slabbed by NGC and PCGS both ! And this was years ago. Back to the NT - the Proof nickels of that period were well known for toning some amazing colors. I passed on probably about 80 of them to my son for his collection. And I gave away a boatload of them to other collectors. This is what they start out looking like, but only a very, very few ever get that dark, rich blue. You can see a few more here - http://www.1messydesk.com/Toned/toned-coins.html
My understand of "Black Beauty" is that the term was coined for some improperly annealed 1959 nickels which are not deep blue but literally a mottled black: Its dark color has little to do with "toning". Of course this isn't to say that folks with Deep Blue toned nickels don;t refer to them as "Black Beauty's" its just to say that I think the term originated with the 1959 coins and was used again in, I believe, 1962.
For the OP, yes, there is "bad" toning: which is how I was able to purchase the above Washington Type B Reverse for only $42. Nobody wanted it and when I replaced it, nobody wanted it.
That's where we disagree. Sintered planchets have existed since long before 1959 and on other denominations besides nickels. It is my contention that name black beauty was borrowed and then applied to sintered planchet nickels, which exist in much greater numbers than the coins to which the name was originally applied, as a marketing ploy.
All coin collectors must store their coins somehow. Since the appearance of their coins in the future is directly linked to how they are stored now, this would make all collector coins artificially toned and all collectors tone doctors. The only difference would be the level of knowledge employed and the results. The question becomes "Why does it matter how the coin ended up looking like this?" The reason it matters is because it directly affects how the coin will look in the future. It matters if a coin has been dipped because that coin will not be able to tone the way a coin that has never been dipped can. It matters because a dipped coin can come back from a TPG in a body bag. It matters because a modified coin is a lie. It could be a false mint mark, a tone job to hide micro abrasion from "wizzing" a coin, or it could be just a little nose grease rubbed on the surface. Think of every time you've bought a coin you felt was misrepresented. How did that make you feel? How did you feel towards your fellow hobbyists? We it owe it to ourselves, our fellow numismatists, and our field of study to be honest with each other. If we want coin collecting to prosper and grow as a hobby we have to treat each other with honesty and integrity.
