Why did NGC bag the coin as AT?

Hey, let me fix this for you! A simple change of your sentence proves our point.

 

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The quintessential Doug returns. As soon as you see yourself losing the argument, you just declare yourself the winner and claim that my points have not logic because I am trying to prove "the great and powerful" Doug wrong. You really are the guy hiding behind the curtain aren't you? Bag toned Morgans are naturally toned and they took decades to achieve such toning. A far cry from some guy sticking his proof sets in a hot attic for a few months or years. If you are so confident that you are right Doug, then post a poll asking the readers of this forum who they think is right! You will get the toning haters to vote for you and that is about it. The fact is that your opinion is not accepted by the numismatic community.

What the TPG's do regarding toning is the best solution to the problem. It is certainly better than yours which is you can't prove it so why try! If the TPG's made a decision that was inconsistent with the views of the mainstream views of the numismatic community, you would hear about and the policy would quickly change. You make the TPG's out to be the dictators of the numismatic world when in fact they are simple politicians.

You can't prove your opinion that there are more AT coins in TPG slabs than I could disprove it. Are there AT coins in TPG slabs? Yes, there certainly are! Is it on the order of 50% like medoraman would like us to believe? I severely doubt it!

Yes Doug, it is the subjectivity that bothers you. Market acceptability does not attempt to classify a coin as AT or NT, it simply gives you a confidence level that it is one or the other. The only acceptable confidence level for you is 100% while the rest of the numismatic world is willing to accept 90%/80%/70% etc. For those that want you to believe it is not subjective, ignore them. Most seasoned collectors understand the subjectivity in grading including the AT/NT/MA aspect.

 

I am sure glad I haven't wasted more time in this thread....opinions will never change. I state for the record that If I bought a coin and had it sitting on my desk in a 2X2 for the next 50 years with a camera filming every second of it's storage...and it toned. Doug will still say I was guessing that it's NT lol

 

I won't speak for Doug, but most of us ( myself included several times due to the length of time I
hold coins ( 40+ years now for some)) have had coins NT on us , but even with the camera, you currently couldn't prove it was NT. People would still be taking your word that the camera data wasn't faked along with the AT coin. One of his points and mine also is that there is no way to prove AT/NT unless it is a bad toning job. Unfortunately when money is involved, truthfulness and ethics diminish, and the more times it changes hands the more it tends to
disappear. IMO.
Jim

 

I agree, However there is something to be noted of the fact that in more than a few examples submitted here , the " Toning " on a coin defies the science of the " Spectrum" range process . Lehigh96 , has I believe made reference to this when examining some coins presented in our threads.

 

There's much merit to that assertion , and also suggests the importance of being able to compile some pedigree data , whether documented by written data and or visual aids , especially when one is potentially looking at a major financial investment in " Rare Coins " . All that " Glitters " is not Gold.

 

And I have posted I have seen toning being performed that would in every way replicate your bottom three types Paul. I was "speaking in tongues" since I do not want to tell everyone how its done. I offered to tell you via PM how it was performed, but you never responded. This knowledge is out there, has been for decades.

My point was that you stated that you HAD to assume that almost no coins deemed NT were AT because of your logic in your first post here. That is the post I was referring to I couldn't follow the logic. Why, just because you are unaware of first hand knowledge of expert AT, that it cannot exist? You claim this again just now,
"I have made the claim that the number of coin doctors who can consistently fool the TPG's with their work is a very small and elite club". Ok, that is your right to claim that, I would disagree. I know of no first hand people doing this right now, since the people I knew who did it probably are dead by now, but just as you believe they don't exist, I believe this information is still out there. I was not claiming 50%, just how do we know it isn't? 5%, 20%, I don't know, but your argument just wasn't proving your conclusion to me. That is all I was saying.

 

No I think Doug is saying you would know it is NT, but the minute you shipped it off to a TPG they take their best guess. For me - it boils down to what the toning looks like and if I like it. Of course I stay away from the rainbow colors since I don't like them, love seeing them(but would not own one). Just my humble opinion - and someone post a poll I will vote.

 

Maybe we could adopt the defunct military slogan" Don't ask, don't tell"

 

Good one!!!

 

One of the methods or factors I rely upon in attempting to determine whether a coins toning is NT or AT , has all to do with the color " Green " . For me, someone who has absolutely no knowledge of anything beyond the basics of chemistry , it's just a simple cautionary tool for me to apply.

 

One thing that is very important to do when buying toned coins is to look at the sellers items they have for sale. All of them. Example: Ebay. You see a coin up for auction. You're interested. You study it. You can't decide. Look at their other coins they have for sale. UMMMM.....gee, they all look the same. Same colors, same toning "progression", dozens and dozens of coins.....all the same? Come on. What's up with that? What are the odds of that? If you wish to experiment with this, go through THIS THREAD and pick out the big sellers on EBAY. Look at all the coins they have for sale. I can promise you it will be interesting. MAYBE ONE or more of the "contributers" to this thread, is actually a "coin doctor" themselves. Again, the coins, they all look the same. "But, but, but my coins are all slabbed"! You know what, there are AT's in slabs. Gotta hand it to ya man.....you're good. Have not figured out how you do it, but I'm workin on it. One piece of advice, those colors. All your coins look the same. Might want to do a change up of some sort. Add a little variety.

 

Of course, you are correct, but that's PRECISELY the point.

Grading is subjective and simply a "guess".

AT/NT/MA is subjective and simply a "guess".

Everything subjective is a "guess".

It's ALL guesswork. That's the point.

 

I see one NT coin (#6), two MA/QT coins (#2 and #5), and three AT coins.

Of course, I'm simply guessing.

 

Here are two links which I found to be excellent read's , on the subject of Coin " Toning " , NT & AT .http://rg.ancients.info/guide/toning.htmlhttp://www.ivyleaguecoin.com/scienceoftoning.htmlhttp://www.ivyleaguecoin.com/scienceoftoning.html ....http://rg.ancients.info/guide/toning.html

 

1 - What's wrong with green ?
2 - Where does this one rank in Lehigh's scale ?
3 - Bag toned ?

btw,, IMO Doug is on it. I don't think anyone can tell what is NT and what is AT.. it's really whatever the tpg's want to call it on a given day based on (my guess here) thier current direction from the finance department.
We all agree that there are at least some "elite" out there who can manufacture a toned coin to meet any of Lehigh's samples,, on demand and in short order... therefore the supply is NOT finite and is likely growing with demand.... I've touched on the results of this before and won't do it again.
I like Lehigh's scale, and believe is directionally correct,, but debased by a couple of things.. 1- as we've said toners can be made to look like any of the samples,, and the NT sample is probably the easiest to replicate. 2- Shane tossed out an interesting silver spoon from the storage shed a month or so ago to illustrate how some NT can present itself in the most AT looking pattern.. kinda like greeny down there... just wild colors and non-typical patterns..... So.... what can we do... the market makers will continue to allow x% of toners through in slabs to meet financial goals regardless...

Guess I have no point, other than to say that there is truth what everyone is saying to an extent.... and to the OP, my guess is that the financial goals of the tpg were met or exceeded at the time your coin passed through... try submitting at the beginning of the fiscal quarter next time and let us know.