72 Kennedy with some major doubling... I think!

Discussion in 'Error Coins' started by bonyfish, Jan 17, 2011.

  1. bonyfish

    bonyfish New Member

    I found this today while searching some rolls, please tell me that I found a true double die.
     

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  3. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    I see what might be slight machine doubling, and machine doubling on Kennedy's of the early 70's was quite common.

    Chris
     
  4. AdamWeber

    AdamWeber Member

    I can definitely see the doubling you are talking about on the reverse, but I would also have to say that it is machine doubling.
     
  5. bonyfish

    bonyfish New Member

    do the letters have to be completely doubled to be considered a Double Die?
     
  6. 19Lyds

    19Lyds Member of the United States of Confusion

    Not necessarily BUT there has to be distinct separation of the devices which on minimal doubling, would appear as a serif split.

    What you are looking at can be likened to a rubber stamp.
    Press the rubber stamp on to the paper and remove it cleanly and you'll get a clear, clean impression.
    Twist or move the stamp before it clears the paper and you'll get a distorted impression.

    Coins are no different since if the machine moves or the coin moves before the die is clear of the coin, the impression gets distorted and appears to be doubled.

    On the Early Clad Kennedy's, as has been stated, this was quite common and can sometimes be quite dramatic.
     
  7. bonyfish

    bonyfish New Member

    Thanks 19, I guess I will keep on searching then. I'm still going to keep it though.
     
  8. atrox001

    atrox001 Senior Member

    Your half dollar appears to have MDD (machine damaged doubling), or Strike doubling, on the reverse, note the doubling on STATES. Attached are a photo of a 72D DDR-001...die doubling, and a photo of an example of MDD. Can you see the difference?

    Larry Nienaber
    72D DDR-001.jpg MDD.jpg
     
  9. bonyfish

    bonyfish New Member

    I can see something at the bottom of the I and T in the photo on the left, the letters also look thicker. The photo on the right looks a bit more like mine. Why would coins like the famous 1969 cent and 1955 cent be considered a double die when the numbers are completely separate? I thought DD's were mistakes on the die itself, before the coins are even struck? Is it possible that the engraver would have put the error on those particular dies?
     
  10. 19Lyds

    19Lyds Member of the United States of Confusion

    To answer your question, yes, an error occurred in the die making process which is what allowed the coins you refer to, to be created. There are some interesting stories regarding these coins which you'd be wise to research.

    Now some details:

    Before the 1990's, when dies were created, they went through multiple steps.

    Once a design is approved for production, a galvano gets created which then went to the reducing lathe which reduced the 6" Galvano design down to an exact duplicate of what the coin will look like. This was an engraving process which took upto 48 hours to complete and the end result was whats called a Master Hub. Hubs have positive relief exactly like coins.

    The Master Hub gets heat treated and hardened.

    The Master hub then would be used to create a Master Die. Dies all have negative relief. However, instead of engraving, master dies are made in hydraulic presses where the hub gets pressed into softened die steel. Mutliple impressions are needed in order to insure that all the design elements are impressed into the Master Die. Each step consists of pressing the die then removing it from the press, heating it to soften it, then reinstalling it in the press for another impression. IF, the Hub and Die are not perfectly aligned during any step of this process, then a Master Doubled Die gets created. Once the Master Die gets created, it gets sent to the engraver who then engraves the date onto the die.

    The Master die is now used to create Working Hubs in the exact manner that the Master Die was created. A Master Die can create hundreds of working Hubs and again, each time a Working hub is softened and reinstalled for reimpression, it must be perfectly aligned or a Doubled Working Hub will be created.

    Each working Hub is now used to create Working Dies. These are the dies used in the coining presses and each Working hub can create hundreds of working dies and again if any of the softened dies are not perfectly aligned during the repressing step, then a doubled die gets created.

    The working dies get stamped with the Mint Mark and then are ready for the production presses.

    To minimize alignment problems, the US Mint uses aligning keys on Hubs and Dies however as with anything, sometimes the aligning keys get honked up with the end result being a doubled die.

    In the case of the 1955/55 and 1958/58 and 1969/69 Lincolns, the doubling represents whats called Rotated Hub Doubling. This type of doubling occurs when the receiving die gets rotated slightly (around a central pivot point) during the hubbing process. The amount of rotation, on some hub doubled dies, is less than a degree and in many cases, less than half a degree.

    Other types of doubling can occur during this process and these include Distorted Hub Doubling, Design Hub Doubling, Offset Hub Doubling, Pivoted Hub Doubling, Distended Hub Doubling, Modified Hub Doubling and the last (and newest form) Tilted Hub Doubling. Pickup ANY numismatic book regarding current coinage with varieties and errors and each of these doubling types is explained in detail.

    So...how did doubled dies get produced? Easy, mistakes happen and even though its not noted above, every step in the process is checked for quality including the actual minting process of the coins.

    Obvious errors are discarded.
    Not so obvious errors can get through.

    I hope this answers your questions and encourages you to do more research.
     
    Briboy07 likes this.
  11. micro

    micro Member

    I think Kennedy's hair needs a look at. His forhead hair?
     
  12. atrox001

    atrox001 Senior Member

    Where do you see doubling on the hair above the forehead? Here are a couple of examples of doubling on the hair that you can find in the Kennedy series...64D DDO-017 or the 66SMS DDO-013.
    Larry Nienaber

    64D DDO-017 hair.JPG 66 SMS DDO-013 hair.JPG
     
  13. micro

    micro Member

    Now that I see closeups, I recant my note.
     
  14. Briboy07

    Briboy07 Well-Known Member

    19Lyds that was so awesome! Thanks for taking that time to give us all a gd lesson. I would have posted this coin as well. I just have a rotten time between MD, Dbld and split serif. The coin still looks cool!
     
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