Sniped Again! There goes my S-143

This was another unattributed rarity 5 coin which showed up on eBay. It iis the second stemless wreath of 1797 and coincidentally the same reverse as that used on the only 1796 stemless reverse as well as the unique 1797 NC-8. It is certainly in fair condition and I thought I had it for much of the last few days.

There are several eagle eyed variety collectors keeping me honest these days.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220720419702

Anyway, I thought I'd post this since there has been a copper shortage on CT lately.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

I like that seller, I gotten some coins in the past from them. Shame you missed it!

 

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

 

I know the feeling though Marshall. I found a rare BMC book on Ebay about 3 months ago, and it stayed at .99 for most of the auction, moving up to 9 dollars an hour before end. I really wanted it, and had my snipe set, (cockily), at 88 dollars. Well, it went for 90.50. In a book auction, I knew I would have to pay $150 at least, but got cocky thinking I was guaranteed a steal.

Worst part is that when this happens it almost feels like you already own it, then someone takes it away.

 

The only consolation is that the winner had to pay a fair price. I usually bid what it is worth to me and hope I get it well under my bid. If I get sniped, at least I know it was worth more to someone else. It is then a wanted and appreciated coin, even if it isn't in my collection. The one I really hoped to get was the S-53 R6 that I was highest bidder on and covered tenfold for most of that week. Then it went for about three times my bid on the last day.

 

I try, (when I am rational), to try to remember that Ebay is effectively a 3 second auctioneer. Everything up until then is fluff, but it still hurts. Lol.

 

Well that means you were the second highest bidder and set the price. $90.50 was the next increment.

 

This is how I look at it too. I was bidding on large cents and just putting in my maximum bid right away instead of trying to jump in at the last minute, and often I'd lose and check the final sales price and it was only 50 cents more than my max bid. So I was thinking, if only I had bid fifty cents more. But then I though, that person's max bid might have gone several dollars higher yet, and I didn't really want to pay anymore, so I'll just wait til the next one comes along.

 

Sorry for you loss Marshall. I am hoping 900fine filled a few of the empty holes in my large cent album at the fun show. I lose a lot of auctions bidding what I think a coin is worth to me - I don't snipe, but I have placed my bid in the last minute. Most auctions I visit a few times before placing a bid. The ones that get me were - priced them at dealers, heritage, etc. I bid - then the coin still goes for more than the dealers price. Funny at times. I am still surprised I won that one 1834 large 8 variety.

 

Always bid your max. if you want it more you will have to pay more that,s just the way it is!

 

When I'm acquiring coins, I want to be the only variety collector out there. When I decide to sell, I'll want a world full of variety collectors with very deep pockets.

 

Good strategy.

 

Lol of course. I pursue so more esoteric areas of collecting at times, and right now when I am buying even one more collector really ups my costs. Yeah, I want those areas to become "hot" when my kids sell my collection too!

In all seriousness, it is a very great point for collectors to consider. Try not to get caught up in what is popular right now, but seek out less talked about areas of the hobby. If this hobby is anything it is cyclical. What was hot is not, and every area will eventually become more popular some time. Early copper, IHC, Bust halves, early commemoratives, have all spent time as the "hottest thing in the hobby". I believe most are more normal right now, which makes them good buys to me.

 

Excuse the newbie question, but what is a "rarity-5 coin"?

 

Thank you for the opportunity to go into this.

In 1949, William Sheldon introduced several new concepts for evaluating coins.

One was the 70 point grading system we use with some modifications for determining a coin's wear or grade. It has evolved from strictly wear (detail grade) into net grading or value grading. There are other threadss you can pull up to find this discussed further.

Another concept is a rarity scale which would indicate the difficulty with finding any particular variety of Large Cent. It began as an 8 point scale and has been expanded to a 24 point scale with the introduction of the +/ / - after the R.

I will give you the current definitions for Early Date Large Cents which I believe is commonly used on many other coins as well. But check the legends carefully because some rarity scales on other systems are different.

The following is a count or estimate of the total population of a variety which has survived and currently exists. It is estimated about 2% of the original mintage of Large Cents has survived. Sheldon excluded those coins impounded permanently with the ANA collection, but I don't think they are excluded in the current usage of the scale.

NC - Non-collectible Variety
NC - Now Collectible Variety - After a variety has had a fourth coin discovered, formerly Non-Collectible varieties change to this designation.

R8+ 1 Unique - Only one specimen.
R8 2 Nearly Unique - Only two specimens.
R8- 3 Nearly Unique - Only three specimens.

R7+ 4-6 - Extremely Rare
R7 7-9 - Extremely Rare
R7- 10-12 - Extremely Rare

R6+ 13-18 - Very Rare
R6 19-24 - Very Rare
R6- 25-30 - Very Rare

R5+ 31-45 - Rare
R5 46-60 - Rare
R5- 61-75 - Rare

R4+ 76-117 - Very Scarce
R4 118-158 - Very Scarce
R4- 159-200 - Very Scarce

R3+ 201-300 - Scarce
R3 301-400 - Scarce
R3- 401-500 - Scarce

R2+ 501-750 - Not So Common
R2 751-1000 - Not So Common
R2- 1001-1250 - Not So Common

R1 >1251 Common - While this has sometimes been broken down to R1+, R1 and R1-, I haven't seen population estimates for them since there is no practical or financial distinction made. I suppose there are some common coins which are seen more often than others and that is the point being made.

 

Sheldon did not create a grading system. Sheldon described a pricing relationship between the grades that held true at that time and which had been true for the previous 25 years. He made the mistake of acing as if this relationship was some kind of "natural law". Actually it was the result of a relatively static number of collectors and incomes. As either the number of collectors grew, or incomes rose the demand pressure on the better grade coins rose and the value or pricing ratios between grades changed.

Sheldon set forth his ratios in the book Early American Cents in 1949. By the time the first edition of Penny Whimsy came out in 1958 the ratios for the upper grades were already out of whack so Sheldon introduced a bunch of "adjustment rules" to try and make them work again. By 1967 and the founding of EAC they were ALL out of whack and EAC spent the next five years trying to adjust the basel values an adding additional adjustment rules to try and restore Sheldon's "Science of cent values" before finally giving up in 1972.

Now in all that time it was the PRICES that were being adjusted. The grades G, VG, F, VF, XF, AU, Unc, Gem Unc, and Perfect Unc had not been changed at all and with the exception of Perfect had been around since the erly twentieth century. Sheldon never did anything to develop a grading scale and in fact in his books he says that the first thing you have to do is determine the grade before you can apply his price ratios to it.

In 1977 the ANA compiled their definitions of what standards a coin had to meet for each grade, and then for no good reason stuck Sheldon's original pricing ratios onto each grade. A concept the copper community had abandoned five years earlier. Now everyone calls it the "Sheldon grading scale" when actually it should be the ANA grading scale.

One comment about the NC and NC. It changed from NC to NC when a third specimen was known in COLLECTORS hands. You could have more then three specimens known of a variety but if the were all tied up in museums or permanent collections and there weren't at least three in collector hands it would remain as an NC and not an NC. Today we really don't differentiate between the two and we just call both types NC's

The 1 - 8 rarity scale is also not original to Sheldon. He borrowed it from an earlier writer.

 

Good discussion.

BTW, does anybody here own any R-6's (or higher) ?

My scarcest coppers are R-5's, and would love to see some R-6's if anybody owns any and cares to show them.

 

I feel your pain. I have been sniped 6-7 times when bidding on a 1970 S small date cent. Each time I went higher than my previous bid. I would stay on top until the close to learn I was beat by a dollar every single time.

I finally got lucky and saw a BIN come up with 29 d 23 h 54 m on a 1970 S small date proof set listed for $69.99. I jumped in and bought it immediately. Since I was willing to pay $60 or more for the cent, I think I did OK with this ? Most of the proof sets were starting at about $100.

As a friend mentioned to me about eBay buying & selling "Sometimes you are the Hydrant, sometimes you are the Dog". But I have found that patience and constant vigilance can get you the items eventually.

Good luck in the future,
gary

 

I don't think I own any R-6's either. I will have to check when I get home, but I think my highes is R-5 also.

 

This was the closest I ever came:

http://www.cointalk.com/t146477/

My current list of R5s

S-76a 5
S-85 5-
S-86 5
S-132 5+
S-133 5
S-183 5+

Then there is my 1798 28DD which is not quite good enough to call 1798 NC-3 R8+.