Brilliant Uncirculated

There is some interesting information on Wikipedia about PCGS including citing some controversies within the Coin World 2003 article on PCGS grading cleaned coins and a FTC action.

I was not aware that PCGS had a civil action taken against them by the FTC.

"In 1990 the FTC (Federal Trade Commission), which oversees business ethics and fraud, filed a civil action against PCGS alleging exaggerated advertising claims. PCGS did not admit wrongdoing, but agreed to submit its advertising for review for a period of five years. In a filing in Federal district court in Washington, the company agreed to include a statement in its newspaper and television advertising affirming that certification by PCGS does not guarantee protection."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Coin_Grading_Service

 

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You are correct after further research I would agree it had nothing to do with grading.

 

Yeah, this was the Merrill Lynch fiasco that exascerbated the coin market decline in the end of the 80's/early 90's. They helped fuel the upturn, but also definitely fueled the downturn in "investment grade" coins especially.

Remember that term you old timers, MS65 as "investment grade", and being sold for your retirement? If I remember right you could buy this Merrill product for your IRA's as well after 1986, you just couldn't physically hold coins in your IRA.

 

And the battle continues.....

 

Fuel for the fire.. while I go make another bag of popcorn.


HERE ARE 2 More COINS to prove that what they put in the slabs varies not just a little bit.... but a lot!! Both of these are PCGS MS62BN

First coin will be the overgraded older cert #





and the second coin will the newer cert number with a coin that looks undergraded?

 

You can't have it both ways Doug. The TPG's (PCGS & NGC) were founded in 1986 & 1987 respectively. According to you, the toned coin market didn't begin until 2002. What that means is that according to you, toned coins brought little to no premium to the majority of collectors. Therefore, there was no reason for the TPG's to bump the grade of a toned coin. I have stated many times in the past that I don't agree with the value grade bump that accompanies toned coins and don't think it is necessary. However, I completely understand the logic behind giving a coin that sells at multiples of bid a bump to the next grade. Once the toned coin market exploded, the TPG's felt it necessary to reflect the added value of attractive toning in their grading. It is logical why they didn't market grade toned coins from the start and it is perfectly logical why they changed their standards. Again, this aspect of market grading evolved as the toned coin market exploded.

Pedigreed coins follow the same logic as toned coins. I hope you are not disputing that coins owned by people like Eliasberg sell for more money than other coins of the same grade. The grade bump is a another instance of value grading by the TPG's. Again, just like you, I don't agree with it, but I understand it. Now the key date thing has also baffled me. These coins already have higher values based on their rarity. Market grading a key date serves no logical purpose other than to perpetuate gradeflation. And I have no idea what they would do if they suddenly found 100 rolls of gem BU 1916-D Mercury Dimes in a vault somewhere. But somehow I think the overgrading would be lost in the price free fall that would ensue from such a discovery. However, I do see your point and agree, market grading a coin because it is a key date makes no sense.

Doug, these are the tactics that you use that aggravate me so much. We are a couple forum dweebs (as Laura says) and we have easily predicted what would happen if gradeflation goes unchecked. Do you seriously expect me to believe that the management of the TPG's is so short sighted as not to be able to see the same inevitable ending. You want me to believe that the TPG's are actively taking steps that lead to gradeflation just to make a quick buck.

That is completely laughable. Red copper represents a very small portion of the coins graded by the TPG's. What you are talking about would encompass every coin they ever graded. There is no way they would be able to honor the grade guaranty under the circumstances that you have described and you know it. For once, just admit that you are wrong.

For about the 100th time, I agree that gradeflation exists. Our difference of opinion hinges on the cause of gradeflation. The fact that the TPG's recognize gradeflation as a threat does not bolster your claim. They can't recognize it as a threat and then follow a policy that hastens that same threat.

Everything you have posted on this subject hinges on the fact that the TPG's are following a course of dishonest behavior. However, on this subject you are willing to take the word of the TPG at face value. I guess your argument about not trusting someone who has previously lied to you is just another one of your parlor tricks. But beyond that, the plus grading system automatically slows down the gradeflation process independent of the laser recognition system. Think about it Doug. If a coin is an MS64, now it has to upgrade twice to get to MS65. If you really don't understand how this new system slows gradeflation and protects resubmission revenue, then I can't help you.

Now that I am done laughing let me state that this is ridiculous. Everyone I know has lied about something important in their life, including myself. Do you limit the distrust only to people who lie to you? That seems a little silly to me. In answer to your question, I rely on poker skills to determine if someone is lying to me.

Another parlor trick. You have stated at least twice that you can't prove that the wear is caused by either roll friction or circulation. But now you are saying that they grade coins with obvious circulation wear as MS using roll friction as an excuse. BTW, these are the coins I wanted you to provide an example. A coin that shows obvious circulation wear residing in an MS holder. I am still waiting for you to show me one. Others have posted some Lincolns, how about you give a silver coin?

I know my next profession. When the TPG's lower their standards for the first time ever, I will start buy up all the overgraded coins for pennies on the dollar from the uninformed and submit all the coins to the TPG's for grade review and collect the checks.

If they decide not to pay, I guess I will have to join the class action lawsuit that sure to follow.

I have heard of them. Are you claiming that no whistleblower in history violated one of those agreements. The whistleblower would most likely be part of the lawsuit process.

Bill O'Reilly you are not Doug. And I am not the one in desperate need of a Star Trek movie. Where is your favorite forum buddy Spock, I bet he could help you!

 

darn... my popcorn went stale... what about the slabs I posted? no interest on those 2 coins graded the same?

 

What are the generation of those slabs ?