Heres an example of you get what you pay for. I guess I should have been more specific. What I mean by that is if you buy trashy toning expect a trashy return. If you buy beautiful toning, expect a beautiful return. August 11th 2010 http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1143&Lot_No=4525 January 5th 2011 http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1151&Lot_No=4580 As if the above does not show how healthy the toning market is here is another example. SPOT RESERVED FOR THE COIN I AM GONNA WIN TOMORROW
I remember a story about the toned GSA dollars being sold at a discount becaused they were tarnished. Back in those days I was too busy collecting girlfriends to give much thought to coins, go figure.
I admire your enthusiasm, eye for beauties and wish for you to fill that empty spot you have reserved, but this really is not supporting evidence, but more (extreme examples of) cheering from the toning camp. Again, "If you buy beautiful toning, expect a beautiful return." to which I add, unless the market collapses.
For some reason the folks on coin talk can only see the investment side of coins....frankly I am shocked that no one here collects coins becuase they like to collect coins? What we have in this thread is a bunch of investor/speculator that are biased towards not paying above guide for coins becuase there is risk in doing otherwise.....now I am the one feeling sorry for some of the collectors in this thread What folks are seeing as biased banter is actually Iron clad facts as far as the state of the toned coin market from folks in the know.....the sky is falling naysayers do not state facts and I am lucky if I get to see even one solid example to back up claims like those being touted in the newsmismatic news? Wonder why that is...? I have been hearing about the demise of toned coin collecting and toned coin values for the past 5 years, Mike defalco (RIP) heard about the demise for 35 years before me......at what point are the folks who don't know what they are talking about finally going to move on to the next big coin disaster? If you have the proof then please post it right now...and first hand. The best you have is an article by one person in numismatic news that I don't see stating that the toned coin Market is the titanic...please tell me you have something more that that? I am not sinking one red sent into toned coins because they are in vogue or becuase I think my kids will be able to retire early by selling off my high dollar toned collection....I buy what I like and what appeals to me and I will guarantee you 1000% than in 5 years...the same folks will be making the same claims about the state of the toned market and it will be the same BS then as it is now. Broken record duly noted
Collect what you love, great advice. Some of us who have seen the market for much longer than you simply are reminding people of history and how it tends to repeat. I love it when someone enjoys coin collecting. I know you enjoy your coins, great stuff, and I am happy for you. I have never said the sky is falling on this market, just that its MUCH less sure that someone is getting fair value since there is no quantification mechanism. But, if you buy a coin for $100 and get $100 enjoyment out of it, then any financial return is simply gravy. This goes for any collecting specialty. Maybe this isn't emphasized enough. But, many people collect wanting to know this money will not evaporate in the future. I would not classify their concerns as purely being speculative. It must be nice to be able to determine after a few years that this is a seismic shift in a market that will never change, "1000% guaranteed". Not to be rude, but the EXACT same language was used in 1998 for internet stocks, in 1965 for rolls of coins, in 1986 for MS65 morgans, in 2006 for housing, etc. I am not saying you are wrong, just saying most people who vehemently defend that "things are different" tend to be very involved in the market they are referring to, and have a large financial stake in it as well. I am going to stop posting about toned coins altogether. Maybe I read too much history, and remember too much. I am not here to make enemies. Chris
More power to ya. If you had been around this forum long enough you be hard pressed to a single member who ever said more often or for a longer period of time - forget investing in coins, only collect what you like because you like it - than me ! And by the way, it's kind of hard for me to be biased when I haven't even collected coins since 2006 when I sold my last collection. As for supposed detractors of the toned coin market having been spouting the same old story for 35 years, sorry but the toned coin market hasn't even exitsed for 35 years ! As short as 8 years ago, and definitely before that, it was hard to find more than a handful of collectors who were fans let alone exclusive buyers of toned coins. Prior to 2002, which is when the toned coin market first got started all people wanted to even talk about were blast white coins. Yes, there were some collectors who sought out colorful toned coins before 2002. But toned coins were not widely popular like they have been for the past few years. I'm sorry, but they just weren't. And for proof you can go check all the old posts on the forums, and not just this one. And talk about over-stating what somebody else said The Titanic ? The next big coin disaster ? Please quote for me where I said anything, ANYTHING, even remotely close to that !
This is great information. I'm not looking at these as an investment, but at the same time, I dont want to lose a lot of money if i have to sell. I think i'll probably stick to book plus a 10-20% to be on the safe side, and of course come here before i bid/buy anything.
Dont let them turn you off from a good thing! heres one I paid 33X book and have got every penny of enjoyment from it......Not to mention nobody in the free world can tell me one day this would sell for book or below.
Good heavens,,, from a direct sale ? or or from the auction ?,,, I'm not even sure I saw 80 toners go by in the auctions yet,, excluding today's morgan's. In either case, if you've purchased 80 from the auctions at FUN to date,, well, wow,,, I don't think I've seen a single coin sell for less than 1k yet.
I don't buy coins at the heritage auctions as I don't believe there are many good buys when it comes to toners....I bought all 80 by walking the floor and grabbing coins from dealer cases....I think the most I bought from one dealer was 5 and then there were plenty of 2 coins here or 3 coins there. I bought from small time dealers and big time dealers and I bought from the cheap seats to ground zero if you will. I actually agree with a lot of the last posts including much of what Doug mentions and the thoughts about there not being established market values for toners but I have to disagree with assertions that the toned coin market really started around 2002. I guarantee there are plenty of dealer and collectors that could go back at least 20 years plus and as I have said many time over...Mike defalco specialized in toned coins for 35 years...not just since 2002. Sure the GSA sold the toned examples at a discount and rightly so becuase much more of the public collected blast white than toned and that has not changed in the last 30 years nor do I think it will change in the next 30. The fact that it may not have been mainstream then or not does not eliminate the fact that the market did exist. It existed then as it does now within the hearts and minds of a certain population of collectors who cherrish eye appeal above all else and it will never be a collecting strategy for the majority but there are still a lot of collectors out there and have been for decades. I can tell you that the internet has fueled a big boom in toned coins....all coins for that matter as it exposed a lot of collectors to coins they may not have know existed because they weren't mainstream. My final note is that I dabbled in coins back in 1998 when I began selling comic books and cards on Ebay and I absolutely saw crazy toned coins listed for strong premiums....what I don't remember seeing was the tens of thousands of raw AT coins filling the ebaycoin pages. That is a more recent phenomenon and could have started in 2002?
so are there some NGC star dimes in the future ebay auctions? PS I agree about heritage...I told my woman that if I die click on this link and call them.......the link is heritages website.....they always get the strongest prices
So now you want us to check the old threads. Well thanks to Shane, we don't have to. Shane just resurrected this thread that started in 2003 on the CU forum. And while there have been posts spanning the last 7 years, the thread proves that toning was a hot button topic in 2003 and had been for years. Since it is a rather lengthy thread, I will simply quote some of the more notable posts in the thread. The truth about the toned coin market Here is an important quote from Coinguy1 (aka Mark Feld) which refers to toned coins as the preferred coin of the advanced collector. Here is an important quote from a guy who calls himself homerunhall. Seems he was selling rainbow toned Morgans for a 2.5X premium in the 70's. By my math, that is 35 years ago Doug. And you will forgive me if I lend David Hall more credence than you. And lastly, we have a quote from Sunnywood. A while ago, I described him as one of the leading experts on the subject of toning. Your response was to claim that most of the self proclaimed internet experts are basically imposters. However, you lacked the humility to include yourself in that group. Well Doug, I am going to trust the opinion of the collector who has spent his life collecting the finest toned coins in existence while learning from the most knowledgeable toned coin collectors and dealers such as Ron Sirna, Gregg Bingham, and Mike DeFalco. I will trust the opinion of the collector who has spent millions of dollars on toned coins. I am going to trust the opinion of the guy who has made more memorable posts about toning on different coin forums than anyone else. You on the other hand have posted more false information in one day than Sunnywood has posted in all his years on coin forums. So if Mark Feld, David Hall, and Sunnywood all recognize that the toned coin market has existed for decades, perhaps you should get off your soapbox, stop misinforming the newbies on this forum, and finally, for once, admit that you are wrong.
After reading some of that PCGS thread and seeing a reference to Wayne Miller's book, I re-read his section on toning. It's important to note this book (and my copy) was published in 1983. Miller writes: At the time of publication, Miller appears to be a fan of toning, about 10 pages of his book are dedicated to toning and toned coins. The book contains a number of pictures of coins, many of which he refers to as beautiful and gorgeous. Miller goes on to say: These are direct quotes from Wayne Miller's book The Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook (taken from pages 44 and 48).
I'm not sure that Doug means there was literally no toning activity until recently. We can all agree that toned coins have always existed, and as such, were part of the world coin population that was collected,,, hence, they were part of the coin market since there was such thing as a coin market. The point i think that is being offered is that as a distinct and "significant" sector of the overall coin market, the toned population activity did not warrant being called out as a 'significant market'... IMO, there has always been a toner market,, it's always been there, at least as long as the hobby has been recognized as a hobby/market. Now, to what extent ? I'm pretty sure no one will argue that in the past 10 years or so the toner market as grown from a single A game to one of the most active and visible sectors of the coin market..... it's a AAA game now,,, 10 years ago, no way..... and will the toner premium's remain at thier current levels ? no way,,,, the manufacturing processes are in full production and new toner doctors are being minted every day.... at some point the supply will surpass demand and everyone will have enough of them to sate their appetite (i do think we are approaching this event at an increasing velocity).... anyone collecting toners with "investing" in mind will likely get burned on thier investment (including myself) to a greater extent than thier blast whites, or key dates, that were purchased closer to book value (imo)... which is one reason I always collect 80/20, where 80 is key dates and 20 is fun money, aka toner money ; )
lol... what point/s ? 1 - toner market has always existed 2 - toner market was smaller in the past 3 - toner market has grown in the past ~10yrs to a significant market 4 - 10x (or more) toners are probably a poorer investment than key dates purchased at ~book 5 - 10x (or more) toners are probably a poorer investment than blast white coins purchased at ~book btw,, as a toner fan you should appreciate sewage,,, all kinds of pretty colors are exposed on the film floating on gray water when the sun hits it,,, sewage is pretty !! ; )
