PCGS favors "big name" dealers?

I have never had a favor done for me by PCGS, nor have I ever been treated unfairly. And I am neither a big or small client of theirs.

As another poster stated, the grade assigned on a PCGS slab is just a starting point (in the negotiations of price). The whole purpose of the TPGs is to add a descriptive element to the collectible. They have chosen a numbering system and variety/error identifiers. But they have done nothing to describe eye appeal which is just as important when it comes to collectibility.

Going back to the OP, I too believe that many coins on eBay are those on the lower end of the unrecorded eye appeal scale. But there are some coins that can found from sellers who are not working from a large inventory that are sifted through for gems to sell face to face. Collectors may sell off any and all of their coins, whereas a larger dealer may keep the coins with better eye appeal and sell the others based on the assigned grade alone. A coin in hand with great eye appeal should theoretically fetch a better price than an equally graded coin with low eye appeal.

Think about that... which coin would you buy? A MS64 with great eye appeal for $150 or the same coin in MS64 with low eye appeal for $135?

Now with that in mind, thinking that "favors" are given to people is ludicrous (to quote GDJMSP). Those who feel that way are most likely trying to compare eye appeal and grade... 2 things which independently affect the marketability of a coin.

eBay is a market for coins with low eye appeal in properly graded slabs. But that's just my opinion, and I'm sure that others may disagree and I'm sure that there are instances which would prove that statement to be incorrect. As a generalization, however, I stand by that statement.

 

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I certainly do not mean to cause offense, or attack anyone...but...why?

I mean, let's be honest here. Your arguments are that "anyone who's talked to them" knows this, and that you're critical of them.

While the latter seems certainly to be true (from what I've read anyway), it's hardly "evidence" of anything...and the former is nothing more than exaggerated opinion.

Meanwhile, there are, by definition, SOME TPGs who assign grades well above what a coin does, and do it strictly for profit...they even advertise the fact, by saying they "specialize in MS70's!" or what have you.

And, clearly, ALL TPGs charge for their services, all seek to be profitable concerns.

Certainly I'm not going to say grades are for sale at every TPG. I have no evidence of that nor, to be honest, do I wish to waste my time, effort, and money gathering any.

But since it's established fact that SOME do, beyond "The idea is ludicrous because I say so" what indication do we have that any particular one doesn't?

 

I would tend to agree with you about lower eye appeal coins, (though the TPG'ers do take that into account for their grade, though they shouldn't). I would argue though that many of the slabbed coins AREN'T properly graded, but the coins that the dealers know are overgraded and they are trying to sell for the slabs grade price. Like I said earlier, because of massive crackouts, the BEST grade you can hope for in a slab is the correct one, and no one EVER cracks out an overgraded coin, it looks to me that many of the coins on Ebay are the overgraded slabs that the dealers cannot sell to knowledgable buyers in person.

 

As opposed to my assessment of its value to me?

Precisely...and they have clearly failed...

See?

So...let me get this straight:

These folks provide a "starting point" in the form of a "descriptive element"...and yet, the very factor YOU chose to illustrate your point as determining TEN PERCENT of the coin's value is PRECISELY the same factor that YOU said they "have done nothing to describe".

Precisely the point. You've formed an opinion based on YOUR assessment of the coins, and the people selling them... INDEPENDENT of the holder/TPG's grade.

============

So what we've got here is a group of companies, seeking to make a profit, that provide no value to a reasoning collector, and whose services are eschewed by experienced ones.

And yet, the only argument we can come up with that they are objective is that thinking they aren't is ludicrous.

Got it.

 

I was wondering when someone was going to comment on the subject matter. I agree.

 

Just because they provide no value to YOU does not mean that they do not provide value to others. I would much rather suggest to a new collector they they buy coins slabbed by one of the top 2 companies then to buy raw coins from dealers, shows, or (GASP) EBay. If you don't know how to grade properly because you are either new to collecting or just too lazy to learn then top tier TPG graded coins are what you should buy. The guys that work at these top two companies grading these coins are no slackers either. They are some of the best graders in the world and there is a monster test you have to take before even being considered for hire. I would trust the grading skills of these folks before I would trust the grading skills of a coin shop, coin show dealer, or (GASP) EBay dealer.

EBay is the dumping ground for a lot of big dealers. This is the reason people see so many coins that seem low end for the grade. The nice stuff is in the dealers case or his clients safes.

 

good points... I do think TPG's offer a service in this knock-off nafta world, and I'd never consider purchasing a raw BU 1909S VDB cent, or other high grade $$$$ coin unless it was certified (and I verified the TPG holder also). And for "Very" high $ coins in the 5 figure range, I'd only purchase from reputable dealers.... just too much downside if you get burned there.
As to TPG accuracy, it's probably closer than I could do from coin to coin given the subjectivity of grading, so yield to thier grades. That said, I have noticed differernce's between grading services where one may grade more conservatively than the other.... and I adjust my buying patterns and what I pay for each accordingly.... This sometimes presents opportunity $$ as a collector, and makes the hobby more interesting and fun (at least to me). I use to LOVE searching through the SEGS, PCI, etc. holders on the 'bay years ago.. and have many "undergraded" coins in those holders because folks didn't appreciate thier ability to undergrade as well as overgrade (which was thier bias). Anyway, ask an old dealer what he'd give for a 1934-D MS66 cent graded by NGC, and then for one by PCGS.... there's a difference. The only gripe I have is that it's so well known, so little potential for us collectors to play the variability to our advantage..... bring on more TPG's !!! the more variability, the BETTER !!

To truely drive out variability the TPG's would have to create more definitive grading criteria,,, it's toooo subjective now. Grades should be delimited by specific attributes which are "measurable" (nics by #, location, magnitude.... strike by relief in distance to field from specific locations on the design.... luster by lumen's of reflection at given angels.. etc..) These attributes could be validated by a collector if desired, and the TPG's held accountable to them. The downside: Expensive new measuring equipment, set up and associated operator training, TPG grader's would have to spend more than 30 seconds per coin.. so grading services would likely go even further north (if that's possible ; ).... but from a grading "purity" standpoint, that's the best I can think of.,,,, maybe toss in a star class also, to provide for the "eye appeal" and other subjective attributes.

 

Kinda getting back to the old adage that every coin is unique, no? Like you say Baha I do not begrudge anyone buying a 16d dime wanting assurance it is authentic. What I really dislike is TPG'ers setting their own grading scales, knowingly grading worn coins as MS61 or 62's, (I have seen a 63 I would have sworn was circulated last month), and generally just running roughshod over any industry standards, (think ANA grading standards). Collectors keep buying their products, though, so US collectors only have themselves to blame. Myself, I just bought a couple of NGC ancients I immediately bandsawed. The only 2 ancient slabs I own are slabs misattributing dates and EMPEROR on the coin, just to remind me how "good" slabbing is. Btw, they are AU as well, even better since no ancient coin is EVER graded AU.

 

IMO this goes to show how hard it can be to tell a poor strike from very light wear. Coins that we see appearing in low end mint state holders that appear to have wear... these coins are probably just assumed to be poor strikes... weather it is strike or wear.

 

Wow! This must be a stress inducing hobby for those who think of nothing but a coin's grade. Ol Bill Sheldon must be rolling in his grave at what's going on now!
Guy

 

Yes, all those things are true. However, there's an interesting caveat to "the good ole days"... in many ways, things were much worse compared to now.

There are many people who feel the major TPGs have brought a great deal of respectability to an industry which had a mediocre integrity record.

Yes, there were many honest people "way back when", and there are some hosers now.

But my gut feel is today's batting average is significantly better.

 

We still do all those things... except, in addition, we also have the TPGs. Why is that bad ?

Yes, today we still study coins, attend shows, read books, and learn how to determine, to some extent, how to grade a coin. My intuition tells me we do that to a greater extent than yesteryear. There are more books, periodicals, and clubs than before.

What's more, the electronic age has greatly enhanced the distribution of knowledge. This website is a classic example.

Due to a variety of internet mechanisms, people network more than ever - particularly the younger, techno-savvy set.

 

Well there was an article in NN where a grader admitted that circulated coins are regularly slabbed 61 or 62's, and sometimes 63 nowadays. He said, (paraphrasing), "forget what all of you old timers know about grading".

 

Ebay is also often the dumping ground for collectors with very high grade stuff..... for collector to collector transactions, it's the best I've found. The trick is to simply ignore or view with caution dealer offerings.... and target offerings from collectors (provided your can tell the difference). Over many years, my biggest 'scores' in coin aquisitions, have come from the 'bay,,, from collectors selling thier collections.

 

This highlights something I see every time this subject comes up. It seems there is an "all or nothing" mindset regarding individual grading skills and the subsequent relationship with TPGs. Either a person is perfectly capable and 100% confident, or do not have the ability to grade.

In reality, it's a continuum.

All collectors are somewhere between 0% and 100% on their grading skills - so are dealers and TPG employees.

It's reasonable to conclude that less experienced folks will lean on TPG opinion more than those more skilled, and that as one's skills increase, the TPG opinion's weight means less over time.

It's also true that individuals have much skill and experience in certain areas, and less in others. It's reasonable to conclude that folks value a disinterested third party opinion when venturing into new waters. It's also reasonable that folks feel more confidence when jumping into a new area with a TPG opinion on their side.

 

Perhaps the term "running roughshod" is a bit overly harsh.

The reality is the ANA Standards are a great place to start, but a bad place to end. In particular, the published standards are woefully inadequate with mint state coins. The TPGs have evolved beyond the ANA Standards; they have supplemneted them, not replaced them or trashed them.

And another thing... us US collectors are doing quite well, thank you. We don't "have ourselves to blame". Ancient collecting and grading is not superior to the US segment of the industry.

I can understand why some ancient collectors feel TPGs are a bad thing; they should simply avoid them. But make no mistake... the raw Ancient segment has plenty of problems with frauds and counterfeits.

 

never said that tpg's were bad, but one should first use there own judgement when grading a coin. i do admit, though, for determining an authentic coin vs a fake i do believe they have a place in the collecting world, as the fakes are just so well made. i plan on bidding in the heritage currency auction, and yes i do see the grade first when seeing the note, but i use my own judgement as to whether or not i agree with it. i remember when tpg's came about....there was a coin dealer in danbury, ct that stated that buyers and sellers could buy coins sight unseen because of the uniformity of the grading process. don't believe that that thought process has worked out.

 

Completely agree... I have to add one to all my personally derived grades to estimate what the tpg grade will be... and own many AU coins that appear nicer than other low 60's from the same service that I also own... I've spent a lot of time looking at each trying to identify the delimiting factors between these AU and low 60 coins, (under 5x, 10x and 20x),, with no luck. It's a dicey area between AU and low MS, and w.r.t cents, one where I invest time because I believe it's one of the last remaining area's of opportunity $ in the shrinking Tpg diversity world. My advice, collect AU's !,, sooner or later they will magically heal and become MS ; )

One last point for TPG's... When I was 12'ish I went into a dealer's store and purchased a Bust half... Sold as EF "... because you can still see LIBERTY..". We'll I had my Redbook and sure enough for EF.. "LIBERTY sharp and strong. Hair details visible". I had no idea... lol. Anyway I purchased it as EF and today have it graded correctly as Fine. Now, had there been a certified EF back then for me to compare it to that dealer would not have been able to so easily sell that coin to the young newbee. Hopefully tpg's have driven a lot of unethical dealers out of business (at least the type that played that type of game on kids entering the hobby).