1855 $3 Princess Gold... real or fake and grade?

This is an interesting thread. I actually purchased a fake 1855 $3 unintentionally a few years ago when I was new to numismatics, and it kind of looks like the OPs coin with the uneven denticals and raised lumps; though I do think mine was more obvious after looking at the pics. Here are pictures of it for comparison. The size and weight are exact which leads me to believe that my fake was also 90% gold. I sold it for melt about 2 years ago as a counterfeit to a collector who wanted to use it is a teaching tool.

 

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I am the one that bought your fake $3. Here is the marked-up photo I used to show you why your coin was fake.




I still have the coin and I still use it to show others an example of a counterfeit $3.

 

Link not working...

 

See if it works now.

 

It's good to see you on here Hobo, and Im glad that coin is still being used for good!

I believe the OP coin is fake. My guess is a die struck counterfeit. If any of you have Bill FIVAZ Counterfeit Detection guide, check out Example 1 on page 95 for the 1855 Indian Princess head 3. I believe the same obverse die was used on the OP coin. There is a spike coming out of the top serrif of the S. The dentical irregularity and spiking above the "E" in states. The elongated denticals at 7:30 on the obverse.

 

Excellent info, Johnny and Hobo...

 

That doesn't surprise me one bit ! The faked $3 coin would have to weigh properly....and I guess that means having close to a $200 melt value....no "weigh" to get around the needed weight, so you'd need to actually make it a 90/10 gold/ copper ratio to pass just that 1st test.

No way to fake the weight it should have, or explain it being short of weight.

I can't imagine engraving dies, melting double eagles and making planchets....but I guess it can be done ! I don't posess those skills, I could probably melt the stuff easily enough, but not produce a fake coin from it.

 

In the 1950's and 60 a TON of fake US gold coins of all denominations were being made in the middle east especially Lebanon. These fakes were of the proper weight and alloy. They were basically made because at the time US gold coins were bringing from two to three times the bullion value and it was about the only way Americans could own gold which meant that they had no trouble bringing it back in through customs. So the counterfeiters could take $100 worth of gold, make it into coins and sell it for $250 making a large profit, while the buyer thought they were getting a good deal because they were still buying it for lest than what they thought the value was.

 

And that is one of the reasons that in Larson's book he estimates that over 50% of ALL raw gold coins are forgeries.

 

That raises an interesting point. Deceptive counterfeiting requires a great deal of skill and effort. One would think a talented person like that could get a real job !

C'mon, man ! Quit the counterfeiting and get to work !

 

I'll admit that I'm not good with $3 Gold coins, so I'd check the weight first. If it passed that test, I'd still be wary of it. Melting junk coin gold would always be a possibility to obtain the 90/10 mix , I thought of that already....I just could not "re-coin" it for a lack of skills.

 

I couldn't come close to doing it like the Chinese can !

 

It's hard for me to give respect to a criminal, but nice try using the right alloy of Gold !

Respect might not quite be the correct word, but I think the meaning is apparent.

You know what I mean !

 

It's the "Damn! How did they get it so close to the original?!?! That foold me" factor.

 

OK, I think that I finally got good enough pics for people to analyze. If not, well then, I guess I'll just have to pass this on to some other dealer that knows these better than I. Let me know what you think, please.

 

bump to hopefully get some opinions based on new pictures...

Thanks

 

I'VE DONE SOME COMPARING this coin to ones that are selling or have sold on heritage and I CANNOT find anything wrong with this coin.
My first opinion was based on the first pictures but with the ones last posted these photos above are one heck of a lot better.
The only thing that bothers me about this coin now is the color of the coin in the photos. It is not very realistic lookink at all.
So my vote is that it is genuine.

 

One thing that bothers me is that if a conterfieter goes to such trouble matching the composition , weight and diameter of a coin, why would he use a set of dies that are very obviously fake to collectors. Why not go the extra distance and get a great set of dies
and carefully run off a few thousand of his fakes. I would believe his profit margin would
still be substantial.
Countries such as china, iraq, saudi arabia, russia and others should have the where withall to do this

 

Making perfect dies would be one of the most expensive parts of the process. Running off dies isn't cheap - and running off dies with the very high tolerances necessary to beat the top tier grading services hasn't happened yet (that I know of).

Speaking of which, did anyone ever catch the Omega counterfeiter? Aside from the signature on his work, where there any clear diagnostics on his coins?