Don't Be Fooled!

Never be fooled by a coin for sale that you haven't seen in person! What I have done is used a 1961 DDR Half Dollar photo as a base photo for a Photoshop (Photo courtesy of Collect89.)

First of all, here is the original coin's reverse. As you can see, the coin has some minor marks and a large spot at about 9 o'clock. Perfect photo to "counterfeit", even for a Photoshop amateur:


Then here is a "rare unexplained mint error", which took five minutes to make, give or take a few. Though it isn't that good, it could still trick people:


Then here is a cleaned-up version of the original. This took around fifteen minutes, and it would be very convincing:


This just goes to show that ANYBODY CAN PHOTOSHOP ANYTHING! WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT YOU SHOULD TRY NOT TO BE FOOLED AND ALWAYS PAY CLOSE ATTENTION WHEN BUYING A COIN WITHOUT SEEING IT IN PERSON FIRST!!!

 

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Coins on eBay can not be seen in person until they are purchased and shipped, are you saying people should avoid eBay?

 

Why is the triple struck one only on the words and not the bell and little eagle also?

The difference with your pics and any doctored that may appear on fraudulent eBay listings is that your images are too big and clear, a deceptive listing would be blurry and about 100 pixels x 100 pixels, impossible to see online.

 

Chris, Thanks for sharing that. I imagine there are many newcomers who can get fooled by unscrupulous sellers on web sites. I have often felt the pics of toned coins posted here may have been photo shopped. It is true, you never know what the coin actually looks like unless you have it in your hand. But as others have said, it's hard to hold the coin first when you are trading on-line.

 

Lehigh96 ran a contest earlier this year in which he posted a nice toned Morgan dollar and asked contestants, "What is wrong with it?"

Check out the thread to see what a little retouching can really do, even in the most subtle ways you would never detect.

LostDutchman has also posted an interesting thread on tricky photos: Why it is so hard to buy coins from pictures.

I believe he also had one about a Morgan he did a few tweaks to in Photoshop or Paint and in just 5 minutes vastly improved the look of it removing several problems. I couldn't find the thread with the pics he posted on this one, but it was to demonstrate the ease of tricking the viewer and improving eye appeal through images.


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This is the main reason I no longer by ANY coins on EBAY. The only way I would buy a coin over the internet is if the seller is highly recommend buy the people here on coin talk. Granted I'm limiting my options but I'm also limiting my losses at the same time.

 

There are also many people here on CT who sell on eBay, whether as individuals or as online dealers. At least here you can get to know them first, a little better than a stranger listing on eBay whom you don't have the chance to meet first.

 

No, he said "always pay close attention".

All agree it is best to see a coin first. However, many, many coins are sold without the buyer seeing the coin. This can be done by dealing with a trusted dealer with references and excellent reputation, great photos, and 100% money back guarantee for any reason. Even very valuable coins are sold this way (well into five figures).

This is a very good thread, as was Lost Dutchman's thread regarding doctored photos. Thanks, Coinmaster !

 

While I agree that some individuals on EBay may photoshop their pictures, the vast majority in my opinion, have no intent to deceive anyone. They post their pictures without any real knowledge on how to take correct photos of coins.
90% of the time when buying raw coins on Ebay I ask for additional photos before bidding and if they do not provide them, I simply do not bid on their coins.

I have brought coins from pictures from major online reputable auctions houses and been disappointed when viewing the coin after receiving.

 

Here's an interesting quote from Matt's thread :

"I just wanted to demonstrate how different you can make a coin look by just adjusting lighting and angles." (emphasis mine)

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Notice what he did NOT do... he didn't mess around with it in Photoshop ! That's vital to understanding what's happening.

The OP on this thread showed how Photoshop (and others) can be used to intentionally doctor a photo to look different from the coin. That is a clear attempt to deceive. That is fraud, plain and simple. That is very serious, and very wrong.

Matt's thread is much more subtle. No one doctored the photos; they took several photos under different conditions. Almost every one does that out of necessity. I commonly take at least four of each side; sometimes more, sometimes only one.

Seller may choose to present all photos, but commonly will select and present only one of each side. That's what the big auction houses do in catalogs, and there's nothing wrong with that as long as seller makes a legitimate and bona fide attempt to properly represent the coin.

Since no photo can ever possibly fully represent a coin, a good honest verbal description helps greatly.

I do a lot of coin photos, and my goal is to make the photo look like the coin. You'd be surprised how tricky that can be, especially with copper. Most photos look worse than the real thing.

 

I was attempting to show how a coin could be represented and misrepresented simply by angle and lighting. The poor mans photoshop. I think it is the sellers responsibility to do their best to show the coin honestly. Those 4 pictures showed 4 completely different looks of the same coin... some looked much better then the coin did in hand... actually... they all did

 

I understood the lighting was not photoshoped images.

Didn't you also post a coin in some thread that you did a little light retouching on? I was looking for that thinking it would be instrumental to this thread too.

 

http://www.cointalk.com/showthread.php?t=139766&p=1034850&highlight=#post1034850

 

Yes! That's the one I was thinking about. I guess I thought it had it's own thread before, but didn't. Thanks.

 

+1

I don't think even a small minority of sellers do this. Those who did something this egregious certainly wouldn't last long.

 

Agree.

eBay is great, filled with honest people, but of course there is one in every crowd! I think people overreact when they hear "eBay," it is ridiculous. They limit themselves from a good deal, in which both parties are protected.
Here is how I look at it, more deals for me, and if it doesn't wind up being a deal, I'll return it.

Getting more on topic, I think this thread and others do show how easily a coin photo, or any photo can be manipulated. It is always best to see coins in hand, but when that opportunity doesn't present itself, one needs to make sure their online purchase is backed by a return policy from a reputable seller.

 

By "knowing" your dealer: does that mean "knowing" their reputation by reviewing their feedback and return policies (in the case of eBay)?

 

Yeah. And you didn't even go into the different lighting schemes sellers use. Anything from a blue light to give the impression that the coin has a light blue tone to it to yellow, giving a shiny cleaned coin the appearance of being dull and gray. Sometimes over saturation makes a coin appear to have luster, or be shinier than it really is. Or, hides a cleaning and imperfections.

I just bought an AU silver 3 cent piece. I was watching one that looked great but I could tell it had over saturation with the lighting, making it appear bright. Almost like a MS coin. By looking at different angles to the computer screen, I could see different aspects of it. I could also tell the strike on the reverse was not very sharp.

I ended up buying a different one in a buy it now auction with plain old pics showing a much sharper reverse and some real luster. Some natural toning on the obverse. Same year. Since the pic was duller, the one I purchased received no attention. But I have no doubt I bought the better coin. The one I passed up had double digit bids and sold for more. All because of the picture.

When I was starting out, I would have been in that group for the other one.

There are many auctions on ebay that aren't this complicated. Sometimes they even state that the pics were not doctored and the backgrounds can be used as comparison. Often times the slab color can be compared. You can usually tell who's using tricks and who's trying to be honest. You just have to acknowledge this and look for it.

 

tmoneyeagles is SPOT on! If all these eBay horror stories were true, eBay would NOT be what it is today, ESPECIALLY in this economy. Many, Many fine people and businesses sell on eBay. Two things to consider:
1)Sellers Feedback, if not 100% with a ton (100+) be careful. 100+ positive feedbacks, BUY with Confidence!
2)Return Policy, No Returns allowed, pass on the seller, no matter how tempting the offered coin.
I've been with eBay, 100% as a buyer since 1998, been 100% HAPPY. Assembled my Buff Collection in 1998/99 through eBay, (not much option since I lived in Fallon Nevada at the time!) Lastly, I do not remember ever buying from a "I am not a coin collector" or "I am not a professional coin grader, judge for yourself."
Picking and choosing your sellers in eBay can and will develop a relationship where you will get to know your buyer, just as Doug suggest!
Have a GREAT Thanksgiving Everyone!
Steve