Let's see your Conder Tokens

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by Moonshadow, May 12, 2010.

  1. Larry Moran

    Larry Moran Numismatographer

    Those are very clear examples, hiho.
    They look to have been nicely maintained in collections.
    Congrats.

    I own no wanderow; maybe someday. : )
     
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  3. Larry Moran

    Larry Moran Numismatographer

    Norfolk, Norwich DH-3

    Here's anew arrival.

    This is Norfolk, Norwich DH-3, a one penny token, bronzed, on thick flan.
    It is prooflike and 100% mint red.


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  4. farthing

    farthing Junior Member

    I too would like to own a wonderow one day also!

    Arrived today from this weeks Teletrade auction - Middlesex Kempson D&H 49 - showing Carleton House, where the Prince of Wales (later George IV) partied hard. Much more of an even chocolate brown in hand. NGC 63BN
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    The next two are on their way from Stack's, part of their 75th Anniversary sale in Baltimore this week. A few notable Conder tokens among many common ho-hum lots. The 2 that I was most interested in went for more than I could afford.
    Anglesey D&H 391 - NGC MS63BN PL
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    Worcestershire Kidderminster D&H 23 NGC MS63 BN The obverse is money, we'll have to see how bad the spot is on the reverse. Bid was entered online live - it was just going too cheap and it's a token I've wanted for some time.
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  5. hiho

    hiho off to work we go

    Thanks Larry.

    The Wanderow was one that I wanted for a long time and when Bill McKivor offered it on his new list I snapped it up.

    Amazing Norwich D&H-3, great details and blazing color. NICE!
     
  6. Larry Moran

    Larry Moran Numismatographer

  7. coinman0456

    coinman0456 Coin Collector

    Here is one of mine .

    Recent purchase 1795 D & H 29F Emsworth Half Penny
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Moonshadow

    Moonshadow Member

    I could not help but notice the similarity between Kempson's Lion, and the Lion of Lucerne carved in 1820. The Latin text on the token translates "No one harms me with impunity".

    The Lion Monument, or the Lion of Lucerne, is a sculpture in Lucerne, Switzerland, designed by Bertel Thorvaldsen. It commemorates the Swiss Guards who were massacred in 1792 during the French Revolution, when revolutionaries stormed the Tuileries Palace in Paris, France. The American writer Mark Twain praised the scul...pture of a mortally-wounded lion as "the most mournful and moving piece of stone in the world."- Wikipedia.

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  9. vnickels

    vnickels Matt Draiss Numismatics & Galleries

    nice one moonshadow!
     
  10. Larry Moran

    Larry Moran Numismatographer

    Yours is a very nice example, moonshadow, and your presentation and images are very nice as well. : )

    Here's more from wikipedia...

    The initiative to create the monument was taken by Karl Pfyffer von Altishofen, an officer of the Guards who had been on leave in Lucerne at that time of the fight. He began collecting money in 1818. The monument was designed by Danish sculptor Bertel Thorvaldsen, and finally hewn in 1820–21 by Lukas Ahorn, in a former sandstone quarry near Lucerne.

    The monument is dedicated Helvetiorum Fidei ac Virtuti ("To the loyalty and bravery of the Swiss"). The dying lion is portrayed impaled by a spear, covering a shield bearing the fleur-de-lis of the French monarchy; beside him is another shield bearing the coat of arms of Switzerland. The inscription below the sculpture lists the names of the officers, and approximate numbers of the soldiers who died (DCCLX = 760), and survived (CCCL = 350).[2]

    The pose of the lion was copied in 1894 by Thomas M. Brady (1849–1907)[3] for his Lion of Atlanta in the Oakland Cemetery in Atlanta, Georgia.

    -------------

    Mark Twain on the Lion Monument

    The Lion lies in his lair in the perpendicular face of a low cliff — for he is carved from the living rock of the cliff. His size is colossal, his attitude is noble. His head is bowed, the broken spear is sticking in his shoulder, his protecting paw rests upon the lilies of France. Vines hang down the cliff and wave in the wind, and a clear stream trickles from above and empties into a pond at the base, and in the smooth surface of the pond the lion is mirrored, among the water-lilies.

    Around about are green trees and grass. The place is a sheltered, reposeful woodland nook, remote from noise and stir and confusion — and all this is fitting, for lions do die in such places, and not on granite pedestals in public squares fenced with fancy iron railings. The Lion of Lucerne would be impressive anywhere, but nowhere so impressive as where he is.

    --------------------

    My NOTE: It seems the designer and sculptor were probably influenced by Kempson's Lion,
    engraved about 20 years earlier, examples of which had made it to Europe, undoubtedly.
     
  11. coinman0456

    coinman0456 Coin Collector

    Agreed, that is quite a nice piece.
     
  12. Moonshadow

    Moonshadow Member

    That is a beautiful piece of literature-thanks for posting it Larry. Mark Twain captured the feeling that we all felt as we stood there in the woods, looking up at the lion.
     
  13. Collector1966

    Collector1966 Senior Member

    I have that same Conder token!
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Collector1966

    Collector1966 Senior Member

    This is one of my most interesting tokens-- the Montrose Lunatic Hospital-- erected by subscription
     

    Attached Files:

  15. Moonshadow

    Moonshadow Member

    The lunatic hospital is an interesting token...one can only imagine what went on inside that place! It's date of 1781 is just a few years older than any of the tokens in my collection.
     
  16. Collector1966

    Collector1966 Senior Member

    My thoughts exactly!

    Here's a token of a probably even more foreboding place-- the infamous Newgate Prison, the site of public executions in London when this token was issued.
     

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  17. Larry Moran

    Larry Moran Numismatographer

    1787-1797

    It's a very interesting piece, no question. : )

    I did not find this issue listed in Dalton & Hamer.
    While it is a British Provincial Token of the 18th Century, it's not actually a Conder Token, imho.
    It is possible that it was catalogued by James Conder, but not D&H. : )
    I wish I had access to Conder's publications, somehow.

    The first Conder Tokens were produced on Anglesey Island in North Wales in 1787.
    There are Montrose Conders, but they are from Scotland.

    I personally try to stick to tokens from 1787 to 1797. Britain resumed regal copper coinage
    which was struck by Matthew Boulton at Soho Mint near Birmingham in 1797. Tokens became illicit
    by about 1797 in London and as late as 1804 in the far reaches of northern Scotland I've read.

    I think most manufacturers stopped striking tokens soon after regal coinage came back into vogue,
    of honest weight and of pure copper. But a diesinker or manufacturer might want to continue
    accepting orders for a time, even though illegal. I don't have the exact dates they became illegal to pass
    in various areas.
     
  18. Collector1966

    Collector1966 Senior Member

    I assume you're referring to my lunatic hospital token. I only had a photo (scan) of the obverse available, so that is what I posted. I took another look at the token and found the date 1799 on the reverse. So it falls outside of your time frame, just on the other side :) The dealer's notations on the holder indicate it's listed in D&H.
     
  19. Larry Moran

    Larry Moran Numismatographer

    I see, 1781 must be when the hospital was built, not the date of issue.
    The date threw me. Let me look further...

    Okay, I found your Conder Token. : )

    It is identified as SCOTLAND, Angusshire, Montrose, DH-30. 1/2d 1799,
    Montrose Lunatic Hospital.

    I see no problem with your token now, it's just that I stop at 1797 for the reason
    I've stated. The Conders struck after 1797 in my collection bear no date,
    like some Pidcock tokens which are readily accepted as Conders.
    Yours has similar validity. : )

    In Scotland, Coins and tokens were scarcer, so circulated more on average.
    Finding one in lesser grade is not unusual, or necessarily very detracting
    to collectors of an issue, county, or a lunatic hospital. One is being
    offered in the ebay listing below.


    http://cgi.ebay.com/SCOTLAND-Conder...unatic-Hospital-F-/300494815548#ht_1594wt_660
     
  20. Collector1966

    Collector1966 Senior Member

    OK, here's a scan of the reverse-- or is it the obverse? It's hard to tell :)
     

    Attached Files:

  21. Larry Moran

    Larry Moran Numismatographer

    Yep, thanks. : )

    The side bearing the 1799 is listed as the obverse in D&H.

    Its edge should read...

    PAYABLE BY ANDREW NICOL TOBACCONIST X
     
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