1859 Indian Cent with Shield on Reverse

Yes. The reverse is rotated a few degrees to the left. You can see this in the reverse picture that was posted.

 

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Don't see anything abnormal in the denticles to the left of the "1". I only have a 5x loop though, I'll get a more powerful one tomorrow.

 

Interesting ! That suggests they used a different reverse die simply because they were using a different metal planchet ! Why in the world would they do that ?

Alternately, they used the same dies but the made the rare copper ones first, made only a few, did some die filing, then struck the common Cu-Ni pieces. In that case, it is not a die marriage issue, it's a die state issue. That seems more plausible.

Another possibility is they struck business strikes from one die, but proofs from different dies, and used the same dies for the rare copper strike.

In any event, the Judd pattern book should have mentioned the whole business strike vs. proof thing, but they didn't.

Any other theories ? Any other facts come to light regarding die diagnostics which discern the two ?

We've heard back from pattern expert Andy Lustig who mentioned only color as discerning factor; he didn't mention any die diagnostics.

 

This is the first time I've encountered die marriage issues in the world of patterns. Normally, pattern mintage is so low that one pair of dies is enough for the entire mintage, even if that mintage is more than one metal.

I'm intrigued ! Can't wait to hear how this one shakes out.

 

For J-228, non-proof examples were struck from one die pair, while proofs were struck from a different die pair.
The Copper or Bronze (judd 230 and 231) were struck with 180 degree rotated dies. "examples which are struck from non-proof dies with a normal coin turn should be analyzed to confirm its attribution". All from Rick Snow's Flying eagle & indian cent attribution guide 2nd edition volume 2.

 

5-6 seconds is hard to believe.

 

I agree with robbudo, if you don't pay the extra fee to have it graded as a pattern, variety, etc. they just slap a standard tag on it, regardless of what it actually is. Kinda sad really to think what special coins might be out there, like this one, whose owner has no idea what they have.

 

Nice pattern bro.. you paid 3g's and do What return it to the dealer ..lol .. that's like slapping him in the face...lol how long have you been doing bussiness with the dealer... let me tell you , buying rare coins ishard bargin less you know the swagger.... learn to cut a deal and go knowing wat your looking for an at # 1 phrase is and always will be "what?research is key..." if you view any of my youtube vids I constantly say that... id be honest except the coin cause he wont just take it back easly. And give you all your quid back ... with out a restocking fee... unless they except returns... which is rare.. and when shopping expect to spend.. and or cut deals...

 

Just learn your lession from this event go better prepared

 

This may be the only instance I know of that a pattern is worth less than the business strike. All parties were probably focused on the grade and let the attribution fall through the cracks. The current owner did NOT. I commend his observation skill in catching the error. Now if this makes the coin unsatisfactory, then the dealer AND the TPG are both in the business of satisfying the customer.

In this instance, the owner has two entities he can seek satisfaction from and both should be grateful for the opportunity to make it right.

 

A couple of points:

1. The dealer I bought this from has a great reputation and has a return policy for slabbed coins.
2. I am sure that they would want it back regardless. After all, they probably overpaid someone else for this coin and might want their money back from the person that sold it to them.
3. How could this be like slapping the dealer in the face? They have a list of the coins needed for my Type Set and sent me this. Last time I checked, what I am building is not a pattern type set.
4. Using periods, question marks and spell check is helpful is getting a point across.

 

I agree with Texasjarhead. You paid for a coin you didn't get, through the oversight of more than one person. Honestly, the dealer should be excited to get the pattern coin back, thinking it will be worth more money.

Another thought, I wouldn't be surprised if some dealers out there (I am in no way implying YOUR dealer did this) would know the pattern is worth less than the regular issue, and purposefully have it slabbed as a regular issue (by paying LESS to have it slabbed), and then sell it as a regular issue and will walk out of the deal with $1000 profit.

Last thought, I have an 1858 Indian cent pattern (proof) that cost me less the proof of an 1859 regular issue Indian cent, even though they made significantly less of the 1858's, so patterns worth less than regular issues is not all that uncommon - it's just that the market is so specialized.

 

you can always send it back to ngc to have it reverified..

 

Kaosleeroy108, would you keep a $1500 coin that was sold as a $3000 coin? The OP unknowingly bought a coin for twice its value. This is the point you seem to be missing. If I was the dealer, I would rather the buyer bring it back for a refund, than it appear that I sold a coin fraudulently. The dealer should be more than happy to take it back.

 

It also says something about NGC or any TPG, if for $15, they would purposely put a coin in the wrong holder and label it such. The almighty dollar was more important than doing the right thing for the hobby and numismatics, especially a coin of this value.

 

well no.. i wouldn't keep it.. if you can return it then do so..

 

Relationships and Commitments

"You forgot to take out the garbage. Now, I can never trust you when you say you love me."

Well, either you are not married or you were quoting your wife.

Mistakes happen. Get over it.

It was not purposeful. It was a mistake. Granted, supposedly three graders look at each coin. Nonetheless, things slip by.

If the coin is improperly certified, the company will correct their mistake. Sometimes, they refund the difference in market value.
It's how they say, "I'm so sorry that I forgot to consider your feelings, Sweetheart."

 

Wrong. You're 0 for 2.

I am "over it". I was never NOT "over it".

 

Entertaining and educational thread guys. I've thoroughly enjoyed the read......

 

mmarrota;
When I read this, it sounds like they keep a blind eye to what the coin actually is. What makes you feel that this is an honest mistake? They would have gotten it right if the $15 was paid.