Proper way to dip a coin?

Its funny you say that. I brought a Flying Eagle that is gorgeous in detail and slabbed "CLEANED". I also brought it for hundreds of dollars less (if not thousands) than its value would be if the coin was never been restored. That made it affordable to me. But poor sucker who cleaned it lost a lot of money.

Ruben

 

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This is physically impossible. You can find miscroscopic corrosion on any chemical process like this in on a flat surface. There are companies that do metalalorgy for structural integraty and stress who clearly have equiptment that can spot anything as primitive as a chemical dip.

There is a lot of reason to be suspect of the qualifications of these experts to even determine the dipping which ***they claim*** they can't see.

But lets start with the vast stores of GCC Morgans directly from the mint still in their cases, and then the millions of Morgans which were used for personal pocket coins, most of which are not in MS state. Then all the circulated coins. And your going to tell me that this doesn't even make up 10% of the Morgan population?

The number of dipped Morgans is utter speculation, which in addition, these experts are in the time a place to most likely see.

Ruben

 

What you guys seem to be missing is that TPGs grade dipped coins all the time. It's called market grading and/or market acceptable in the case of cleaning. Heck, even NGC will grade an NCS conserved coin if it meets these "standards".

That being said, I am of the opinion that dipping a coin is damaging a coin...Mike

 

The next time silver prices go high enough, a lot of people (think primarily non-collectors) aren't going to care one lick about micro layers, luster, mint states, etc. as they toss every silver coin they can get their hands on into a smelter.

Personally, I'm against cleaning. Shine your coins up today, and 10 years later you'll wish you hadn't. I learned this as a kid by using lemon kool-aid mix (no sugar little packet things) to shine up my loose Lincolns. Works much better on brass Rinsed them off real well, but it didn't matter. Now they are all ugly as sin. I can't see dipping being any different other than how long it will take for the coin to become ugly. If residual acid doesn't do its work, then other impurities coming in contact with the bare silver, copper, whatever, will.

Entropy is entropy is entropy. As much as we collectors fight it, it happens anyway.

 

First of all...let me make myself clear....dipping can hurt the coin....but let me make sure that everyone read CAN....
Sure...there are tests that can tell you...but how much would that test cost...and how much more damage would it do to the coin.

I think you are dead wrong.....but I can't change your mind.
The Experts don't just become an expert overnight....they are considdered an expert by many collectors because they have learned and study and searched out coins for years...

I can see the Gov dipping coins to make a fast buck...can't you??
The fact is that these coins were in canvas bags at the mint for years...either sitting on floors or such....now we know from re-search that people had bags of coins from the mint in the same time frame, when they opened their bags the coins were toned...sometimes dark...sometimes many colors....but being in bags isn't the best thing....now why in a blue moon would that NOT happen at the mint??...

I said that some of the Experts I've read about this have been from Grading Co's....they see hundreds of thousand of coins a year...and that is still speculation???...that doesn't make "cemts"

I'm going to leave with this.....
I know I'm not going to change your mind...and your not going to change my mind...but facts are facts...we have both posted them...dipping can hurt the coin.
The things I have posted wern't "thought up" over night....I wasn't the one that first said it either....
I hope that anyone that reads this posts gets a mind full to think about...that is what I liked about this from from the first time I came...everyone posted what they thought....right or wrong...and why they thought that way....the readers could therefore read and pull the meat and leave the bones...its a great way to learn IMO.

Speedy

 

Here's a bit of anecdotal evidence from my collection. Remember, these images are from a cheap microscope, with far less accurate optical resolution than that available from even inexpensive professional-level tools. All images are at 200x, with identical lighting and the best focus I can attain.

The surface of a coin I do not believe to have been dipped:


The surface of the coin I posed earlier in this thread, which retains prooflike mirrors:


The obverse of the same coin, rather overdipped:


The surface of one I dipped the living snot out of:


For reference, a coin which has been so heavily polished that the cheek is reflective, and no marks show up through my 10x loupe:


Using this very small body of admittedly anecdotal evidence, I conclude that dipping is not going to be difficult to see for any experienced grader. Given a mic of advanced capabilities and known-perfect baseline samples, I would suggest that mrbrklyn might even have underestimated the ease with which dipped coins could be identified.

 

Nice photos!! Maybe this is the next step in coin grading!!

I have a friend who has one of those 10-30X stereomicroscopes we use for die varieties. Looking at a coin with it can become very depressing. Take any MS65 and look at it under there and it becomes an MS60. All you see are defects. I can imagine the faults one finds at 200X.

couple links might shed some light on this topic

http://www.coinworld.com/news/053005/BW_0530.asp

http://www.coingrading.com/eyeappeal1.html

 

The biggest responsibility of any coin collector is to properly handle, store and maintain their collection.

Conservation is a controlled form of cleaning. If done correctly, conservation should not harm the coin.

Coins that are corroding need to be conserved or they will eventually turn into dust.

There are a few cases where dipping is beneficial, if not critical. If a copper coin has verdigris, then it needs to be dipped with a solution specifically designed to remove it without harming patina. PVC contaminated coins should be acetone dipped. Dipping silver coins is trivial, but acceptable if done correctly.

Obviously, taking out the brasso and scrubbing a coin with a steel brush will do more harm than good. Coin conservation is an art. You basically need to have an advanced degree in chemistry and metallurgy to understand how to properly conserve coins. If you don't know what you are doing, don't risk ruining a perfectly good coin.

 

Super Dave
That is right.....but most grading Co. and people colling coins don't use that high of power of looking glass...in fact most people use an un-aided eye...
If you used that much power nobody would ever have a PF or MS70...you have to stop somehwere and most agree that the place to stop is 5x.

Speedy

 

Its funny you say that. My new digital camera does that. I had a walking liberty half I spent about $100 on and thought it was great, UNTILL it fell under my camera's lens.

Ryveb

 

Yes, yes, yes...................only look at your most favorite coins with the naked eye!!

Doing it with any magnification makes one very depressed because all you see are the minute inperfections.

This will make you absolutely suicidal when you look at what you thought was a magnificent $500 coin and now see nothing but imperfections and not a coin you want to have anymore.

A beautiful coin is MOST beautiful to the unaided eye!

 

That coin world article on toning is good except that this paragraph is not correct

""Not only has there been damage done to the coin's luster by the sulfur chemistry, but one frequently cannot make an accurate assessment of the state of the surfaces under the toning."


Once the coins "rusts", which is what toning is a form of, then there is no going back. Its not just a blanket of the coins face. Its a enthropicy driven reaction. The surfaces luster is not "under" the toning. It is now part of the toning and physical placement of the coins metalic grains are peramanetly disturbed.

Although after this discussion, I'm coming to a better understanding on why collectors like toned coins, aside from eye apeal.

Ruben

 

Can I ask a very silly question what do they dip the coins in??

De Orc

 

Thanks it was not something I had come across before, so thats some new info to store

De Orc

 

http://www.scorecard.org/chemical-profiles/summary.tcl?edf_substance_id=62-56-6
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterling_silver

BTW - It think that is just a functional group to a larger compound. Sulfonylureas are common in many drugs.

Here is some on the topic scientific studies on microstructures of coins and use of thiourea

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bpl/arch/2005/00000047/00000004/art00009

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/maik/rjac/2003/00000076/00000011/00485312

 

This is pretty impressive. How did you take these photo? Gem deals actually look at gems under a glass to grade them. Coins should be as well.

Ruben

 

QX5 microscope. Under $100.

 

Here are the only facts that matter

If you pay the pros to dip it, it will increase in value and you will be a hero.

If you do it yourself with equally good results you are a loser.

Its just like having to pay the priests to ensure your admittance into heaven.

If it ain't sanctioned by the big powers (those with big MONEY), it has no credibility.

 

Sweet! Digging up a 5 year old thread!