Help with doubling

Can anyone tell me what I have here? Sorry if the pictures don't come out the best. I don't have a fancy camera. I did what I could in hopes of getting the pics out to you. Thanks for your help. By the way, this is in the 2005 Mint Proof Set. Just in case that matters.

The Newbie
PS As per request, I've posted a picture of the coin. I don't know how you people keep up with all this. It seems like WAY too much work. My housework is suffering here, ya know. I hope you're not coming over for dinner anytime soon. I guess (hopefully it works) you're just supposed to click on the images and it'll bring you to a larger image on the web.

And that's it!! I'm heading off to K-Mart for a part time brain to help me with these things. Thanks for the help. Oh, and if it is strike/machine doubling.. what then? Did I just get a messed up coin from the mint that I paid good money for? That would be just my kind of luck. More pictures in future posts. Scroll down. The last two pictures in the blog are of a 2003 dollar for comparison.

 

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Hello StartingOut, welcome to the forum. Is it possible for you to post a pic of the whole coin? Believe it or not it helps.

Happy hunting,

Michael

 

It looks like it's probably strike doubling (machine doubling). Interior features won't show the flat shelving that occurs at the margins of the design. However, since proofs are struck more than once, it's also possible that you're seeing slight movement between the strikes.

 

I would like to see more of the coins in the fourth and fifth images. The fourth looks like die doubling, but I want to see more of the coin to be sure.

 

All righty then!! This how I feel about it.:desk:
I've got say I am corn-fused. The initials are clearly doubled in pic #4. However I am going to have to go with Mike on this one... not that he is wrong much. Everything else looks like a strike double.
Still, how can those initials show seperation like that without seperating the rest of the coin? That was a question for you Mr. Diamond.

Perplexed,

Michael

 

Thanks for your replies so far. I'm trying to get a few more pictures to you, but the hosting site is down for maintenance. For 2 DAYS?? Anyway, as soon as I can figure a way to get more to you, I will. Again, thanks for looking. Also, I know I'm not an expert (wow, so very far from it) but can there be die AND machine doubling on the same coin? Just a question.

 

Strike doubling is often uneven. Exactly why is sometimes unclear. As I said, I'm not sure it's strike doubling. Since proofs are struck more than once as a matter of course, a slightly loose die can create doubling as it shifts position between strikes.

 

Wouldn't the entire image be shifted this much then? Like the 1955 DDO Lincoln? I know it was a different form of doubling but wouldn't the effect be the same? Or does the second shifted strike overlap and remove much of the first strike? Fun questions. Learning is so cool!!!

Thanks,

Michael

 

Here is an example of doubling from a doubled die and mechanical doubling on the same coin.

Larry Nienaber

 

I think (hope) I finally got it. For those of you who asked for more photos, here's a link to them. Thank you so much for your help.
Mary

http://img375.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=nose710zj.jpg

 

Hi,
I've got to say that the Initials GG show the classic signs of die doubling. I have almost no doubt about it. The overlapping is clear and there is distinct separation of the images. I think this coin bears should be closely examined by a variety expert. By the way, this type of doubling will have nothing to do with the coin being struck more than once as the second strike would obliterate the first.
Bill

 

Those doubled designer's initials do look like a doubled die. If it was strike doubling, these small, isolated elements would exhibit classic shelving. They do not. If it was die instability between strikes, we'd expect to see "flat-field doublin". In that case, one of the initials would be completely flattened. That's not the case either. So I agree with "foundinrolls" that this is most likely one of the new doubled dies that arise somehow during the "single squeeze" hubbing process. A significant discovery in anyone's book.

 

I think sometimes photos can be decieving. Here is a photo of a 2003 proof which has mechanical doubling. You need to consider that the initals are low relief.

Larry Nienaber

 

Interesting. But how do you KNOW it is mechanical doubling, as opposed to a doubled die? Is there flat, marginal shelving elsewhere in the design? I'm used to seeing this rounded sort of doubling, with subequal height between primary and secondary elements, in association with interior design elements (eyes, ears, etc.).

 

Mike...there is alot of obvious mechanical doubling on this dollar, see scan. This is really strange that the low relief initals show up in a photo as high relief, optiacal illustion. The doubling is from a bounce.

Larry Nienaber

 

I tried to take some photos of other low relief letters and they alway turn out to look like high relief in the photos, like the FORWARD on the Wisconsin Quarter...doesn't this look like high relief, or is it just me who sees it?

Larry Nienaber

 

Hi,
What I see on the 2003 could also be die doubling. You do not get that distinct separation between images as is seen on both of the Sacs in question. The IN WE is mechanical doubling and is common on proofs. What is going on with the designer's initials is more than Mechanical doubling. keep in mind that you can have both mechanical doubling and die doubling on the same coin. There is absolutely no way that I know of to have a "bounce" that does not destroy the metal around the area of the strike. The relief makes no difference with respect to the kind of seperation of the images as seen here. I'm sticking to my opinion that it is die doubling.
Bill

 

Bill...I can asure you that the doubling on the designers initials on my 2003 dollar is mechanical. Looking at the coin under the scope is a very different image than you see in a photo. Try to take a photo of low relief letters and you will see what I mean. The photos are deceptive.

Larry Nienaber

 

I've added 2 pictures of 2003 dollar for comparison. They should show up as the last 2 in the blog.

Again for those interested, here they are.

2c3fbd058b9bae8b9cade7e164125d8f=nose710zj.jpg=img375

 

Mary...when you compair the doubling of the initials with your photo, does the doubling look the same as it does under a scope...do you see sharp edges in the middle of the g's?

Larry Nienaber