Dave's Right - They're Ours!

UK Treasure laws amount to taxation without representation. Go dump some tea in a harbor to upset the king.

 

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Wow! The xenophobes are out in force today!

(BTW: It's currently the Queen)

 

I know, it was a joke.

Trust me, taxation without representation is a very real problem in American society today... due to lobbyists, almost every politician in the US blatantly ignores the will of their constituents (Who they are supposed to represent...) and bends to the lobbyists.

 

Merc

Well, I have to agree - both sides have insane laws when it comes to taxes, etc - see the thread on paying taxes on selling silver, for example, and the soon-coming $600 1099 law!

It's the same in the UK - and I have seen both sides (I reside now in the US). For the coin horde, I think, from examples I've read about before, they'll do OK out of it - it isn't seized period, like Doug had mentioned has happened in the US before -

"And since the Brits at least share the proceeds, our govt. doesn't, then it might be seen as not so bad after all." ​

I wonder if they took a few out first and reported the rest ...

I get taxed by the US - but have no representation!! [Of course, when I apply for US citizenship, I'll be all set!!]

I'll check the UK situation out when I go for a visit back there next month! Hopefully pick up some nice UK pieces whilst over there (unfortunately, no double eagles for me at this time!).

 

This is ocean find, ancient treasure trove maritime law. Not applicable to land finds at all. There has never been a case where someone found a coin on private property in the US where the US government claimed ownership, they just tax your gain like any other income. The difference Doug is the US government is the "owner" of public lands, including the ocean around us. If I owned the oceans legally, I would protest anyone digging up treasure on my property without my permission as well, same as if someone wants to metal detect on 160 acres I own without my permission.

Andy, Xenophobic? I was just reacting to someone badmouthing the US to start with. Just pointing out holes in his assault. I personally think UK treasure trove laws are the best solution for ancient coin finds, and applaud the Brits for it, as it ensures hoard information is captured, important coins are documented and museum get a great chance to acquire important pieces, all the while the finder gets compensated. If we had ancients here I wish we would adopt the same laws, though with our private property rights I doubt we could.

I agree, long live Brittania, (as long as I can live in the US).

 

Should you really be talking about plunder? The U.S. has nothing compared to whats in British museums... The fact is all of those antiquity laws benefit the "old world" and the U.S. is allways getting shafted so if one small time we can take advantage of those laws we should.

 

UK Treasure laws are some of the best and most sensible in the world.

If the coins are declared treasure they are appraised by independant experts and the government or the museums that want them have a few months to come up with the money to PURCHASE them at the appraised value. That money is then split 50/50 between the finder and the owner of the land it was found on. If they are NOT declared treasure or if the museums can't come up with the purchase price, the coins are returned to the finder. So either way the person who finds a treasure makes out well. It is not an outright confiscation such as many countries do.

Finds of individual coins or just a few coins are not considered Treasure unless they are over three hundred years old.

If you find a treasure and don't report it, and then the government learns of it later they will then confiscate whatever you still have of the treasure and I believe you will be fined an amount equal to the total value of the treasure. So if you find one and try to hide it from the authorities and can end up costing a bundle. You might be able to get jail time as well.

The way the law is written makes it to the finders advantage to report the finds so that the area can be properly excavated by archeologists because he can't lose by reporting it, but he can lose big if he doesn't. If he reports everyone wins. He either gets the coins or the money, and if it is treasure the museums get new material and the archeological excavation provides more information and knowledge about the era.

As to the person who mentions that he prospects, raw gold such as nuggets etc are not treasure unless there is evidence that the were deliberately hidden by a person intending to come back and retrieve them later. Basically Treasure refers to worked objects of gold or silver.

The references to claiming it as part of our cultural heritage is because of many countries attempts to demand return of items including coins as part of their cultural heritage. Typically these requests are for all coins made in their country (and sometimes that may have been used in their country) before a given date unless there is documentation to prove they were removed legally from the country before that date. This typically means a documented pedigree back a hundred years or more. Can't document it? It gets confiscated and sent back to the country. China has been trying to get all their coins up to 1911 declared part of their cultural heritage. Italy is trying to get coins included in their agreements which would results in almost all ancient roman coins being subject to confiscation. Just after the first Gulf War They tried to extend it to all Iraqi coins or coins that may have been used in Iraqi unless it could be proven they left the country before 1990. Iraq had been a trade crossroads and it could have included most of the coins of the world. Basically in the case of one of these Cultural Heritage agreements you coin is guilty of being considered stolen unless you can prove otherwise.

 

And we know what happened to mel.......I think he is fish food now .

 

My reply was primarily aimed at the posts #14 and 15 which I found to be quite harsh and inappropriate. But if this is a British-American debate, I will gladly stay out.

Christian

 

Yes out West water and mineral rights were commonly sold off separately from the land. Courts have mostly ruled, though, that any human made item is not part of mineral rights, but beling to the surface owner, as mineral rights are held to be naturally occurring minerals. So, even when you do not own your water or mineral rights, the owner of the surface rights to the land own any coins found in that land. The land I own is in the midwest so I own ALL rights, like most of the US. Either way, I have never heard of "treasure rights" being separated from surface rights anywhere in the US.

I do not know how Fisher won, but Maritime law is its own branch, with the US inheriting British precedents and abiding by international conventions, so it would take a specialized lawyer to know what is going on, and understand why Fisher won and others have lost. I do know the original owner has to have been deemed to abandon the wreckage, which itself is an entire lawsuit process. This is where Spain has won recently, fighting the notion that they ever abandoned the wreck. Between that and the exact legal location of the wreck and the political history of that region all come into play for maritime claims. Too time consuming for me to try to understand competently. The point is Maritime law is different than land law, and the US has strong property rights, and no rights of the US government to claim assets found on private property, like most other countries do.

 

Christian,

I think they were tongue in cheek. There are a lot of US collectors extremely angry with Greece, Italy, and other countries trying to claim ownership of all coins "made" in their country, and demanding they be sent to them. The really bizarre thing about that argument is in most cases the culture demanding them today is not even the same culture that minted them, they just happened to live where they live today. Coins were made to be traded, so you find ancient Roman coins in Sweden, so what country "owns" them? I would say the country they are found in should handle the matter the way they wish. Italy would say that the Roman coin should be confiscated at teh US border and returned to Italy. That is the argument.

It is unfortunate the article the OP linked talked about the UK. They have the best treasure law I am aware of in Europe, the author just used the fact they recently found US coins there to write his article. It would have been perfect if they were found in Greece, Italy, Cyprus, or China.

Chris

 

I believe most of Mel's fights in the court were against the State of Folorida and not the US Gov. The problem was that when Mel began looking he entered into an agreement with the State to give the State 25% of the Atocha if he found it. But then when he did the State tried to claim the entire find. There may hav been some problems with the US Gov as well but I don't know what they may have been.

 

One reason the Dark Ages were so dark was a chronic shortage of money. The collapse of the Roman empire meant places without native deposits of gold and silver (like England) were cut off from new supplies. The rulers of the little Anglo-Saxon kingdoms like Mercia and Essex were therefore always short of funds, so they made it a law that treasure troves of gold and silver belonged to them. This gradually became codified in English common law. The original reasons for the law have changed (true, England's still broke, but the odd jar full of denarii won't help much). The current law is designed to protect historically important finds, while still assuring finders and land owners receive fair value. It really is a good thing, and not oppressive. Anyway, a hundred double eagles are hardly likely to be ruled historically significant, so the finders will wind up keeping, I think.

 

Focusing on just this outtake of your well written response, I have to say that there is an underlining problem here from the perspective of the preservation and education of World or National History.

Museums and Archeologist are LOUSY custodians of coins. Paints - yeah. Dinosaur Bones...great. Coins, they suck.

Ruben

 

Medor,

I apologise - didn't mean to offend! Sometimes UK-bashing is de rigeur for some people in the US (esp in light of BP, etc).

At the end of the day, we as coin collectors should be rejoicing that these gorgeous coins (and I do think the St Gauden pieces are about the most gorgeous US coins out there!) have seen the light of day! And let's hope that in the end, they find the home that is right for them ...

 

Andy, I would hope UK bashing was not popular here. Ya'll are the only Europeans who really seem to understand us, and we need you to help us understand Europe.

Funny story, I had an exchange student from Russia once, and when I mentioned Britain she asked, "but aren't they your enemies?". I asked her why she thought that, and she stated, "well you two fought two wars recently". Man, they have long memories over there!. I told her we loved the British, like you love a cousin with a funny accent. No offence meant anyone from UK, I am sure we are like your redneck relatives from the countryside. :~)

 

LOL! Well, I do love it here, and my lovely wife is American - so there are lots of things to love here! I do find now that when I talk with people from England, and they're saying bad things about Americans, I tell them that they're not as bad as you think, plus that we're more or less on the same wavelength (spelling of 'colour', pronounciation of 'tomato' aside, of course).

 

Even in the U.S. some items you may not get to keep. I'm not sure but i think if you mistakenly unearth a Indian burial ground in your back yard you cant keep the artifacts in the grave, not that you would want to anyway...

 

I do believe that what Dave Harper (link in the first post) wrote was a tongue-in-cheek article. As for some of the replies here, well, to me they did not really have much of an ironic undertone. Maybe I am in a somewhat misanthropic mood tonight. (And while I am at it, why would anybody call the British Europeans? But I digress ...)

Guess the issue of exporting old coins, and the possible effects of the Unidroit convention, have been discussed to some extent. Asking to "return" ancient coins is indeed exaggerated in my opinion. On the other hand, selling and buying ancient, medieval, etc. pieces without any kind of pedigree does to some extent encourage "plundering" archeological sites in various parts of Europe.

Christian