What is going on with this saint?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by mill rat41, Aug 29, 2010.

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  1. fretboard

    fretboard Defender of Old Coinage!

    That's right or they could offer you the coin back plus a small amount of money but you gotta think about this first. Why didn't the seller settle up with PCGS, could be they already did and got the coin back with a check for a small amount of money they decided they could get rid of it on Heritage. Since Heritage listed the coin as is it's really hard to say if you will be able to get a refund but it's certainly worth a try.
     
    fretboard, Oct 16, 2010
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  3. fretboard

    fretboard Defender of Old Coinage!

    Interesting outcome and good for you for sending it in!!
     
    fretboard, Oct 16, 2010
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  4. krispy

    krispy krispy

    1926 $20 pcgs ms65

    A side-by-side BEFORE/AFTER of the obverse using mil rat41's images from this thread:

    [​IMG]
     
    krispy, Oct 16, 2010
    #63 + Quote Reply
  5. coinman0456

    coinman0456 Coin Collector

    If I were the op, I would still contact Heritage and make a formal complaint about the Auction Catalog Description. Even though it's the responsibility of the Bidder to determine whether to accept the grade as photographed, conversely they have a responsibility to accurately describe the lot , which IMHO they failed miserably.
     
    coinman0456, Oct 16, 2010
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  6. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    After seeing the new pics - still think that was putty ?
     
    GDJMSP, Oct 16, 2010
    #65 + Quote Reply
  7. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Nope. :)
     
    Leadfoot, Oct 16, 2010
    #66 + Quote Reply
  8. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    May be hope for you yet :D
     
    GDJMSP, Oct 16, 2010
    #67 + Quote Reply
  9. fretboard

    fretboard Defender of Old Coinage!

    St Gaudens! The Gibson to coin collectors and the holy grail to non-guitar players!! :DI'm still waiting to get mine as it's still out of reach!
     
    fretboard, Oct 16, 2010
    #68 + Quote Reply
  10. mill rat41

    mill rat41 Member

    If not putty, then what was it? PCGS never said what it was. Some kind of substance to produce different toning?
     
    mill rat41, Oct 16, 2010
    #69 + Quote Reply
  11. fretboard

    fretboard Defender of Old Coinage!

    I think it was putty and I didn't see too many ppl going back on their initial thought of putty. just my 2 cnts. But what did you think, since you had it in hand you would think your guess would hold more weight.
     
    fretboard, Oct 16, 2010
    #70 + Quote Reply
  12. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    When I'm wrong, I'm wrong. :) Not afraid to admit it in the least. Live and learn.
     
    Leadfoot, Oct 16, 2010
    #71 + Quote Reply
  13. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    I did, and here's why -- putty is put on a coin to hide a defect and get a higher grade. Since there is no apparent defect under the substance, I think it was most likely PVC as was suggested by some.
     
    Leadfoot, Oct 16, 2010
    #72 + Quote Reply
  14. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    If they had gotten the coin back with a check it would have been in a downgraded holder as well. PCGS would not send it back in the same holder/grade and a check because then the next person who bought the coin could also send it in and get a check as well. PCGS is not going to send a check to every person that buys the coin from now on. So they downgrade the coin so they won'y have to.
     
    Conder101, Oct 18, 2010
    #73 + Quote Reply
  15. oval_man

    oval_man Elliptical member

    Apologies for being late to this thread (I've just read through it) and for maybe asking a stupid question, but I don't collect gold. I was struck by the initial photo in the OP because I've seen this exact same look on silver (Peace dollars, ASE's and Walkers, mostly). I had just assumed it was the beginning of tarnish. Have you seen this same look on silver and is it tarnish? Does gold ever tarnish the same way? If it isn't putty on this coin, what is it?
     
    oval_man, Oct 18, 2010
    #74 + Quote Reply
  16. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I would think that what you are seeing on the silver is the same thing this was - either PVC residue or PVC residue that was left over from an improper cleaning.

    And yes, gold does tone. But not like silver does.
     
    GDJMSP, Oct 18, 2010
    #75 + Quote Reply
  17. Owle

    Owle Junior Member

    I'd sell the coin and then buy the next Saint at a coin show or through a middleman coin dealer who will be looking out for a PQ Saint for you. With "bid" at $2200, it is a good time to sell. I have had enough long drawn out legal issues that tend to be a diversion from more productive activity.
     
    Owle, Oct 18, 2010
    #76 + Quote Reply
  18. oval_man

    oval_man Elliptical member

    Thanks for answering what was definitely a dumb question—since this whole thread has been about PVC residue! My bad. But I am concerned about the other part of your comment—that what I'm seeing on silver is also PVC. Could you check out this auction?

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150504648517&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

    On the reverse, 10:00, around UNITED, is the kind of area I'm referring to. It's visible above HALF DOLLAR, too. I would consider this the beginning of toning. Am I simply mistaking how toning looks on silver with how the PVC residue looks on the $20?
     
    oval_man, Oct 19, 2010
    #77 + Quote Reply
  19. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Yes you are.

    PVC on coins can look any of several different ways, and have several different stages that can each look different as well. When the plastecizer in PVC first begins to break down it's almost impossible to see. It will be a clear and very thin film that starts to develop on the coin. As it progresses the film often thickens and become viscuous and sometimes slimy. It can sometimes even take on a greenish cast. And while it may sound disgusting, at its worst it can kind of look like a big blob of snot on the coin. Left unnoticed, it will eventually begin to dry out and become a thin layer again and it can be clear, greenish, or even brown. It can become dry and crackly looking, sometimes flakey.

    Trying to describe how PVC can look on coins is difficult, it's one of those things you have to learn by experience.

    Harder to detect is when someone has tried to remove the PVC by dipping the coin in acetone. When freshly done, there may be a thin residue on the coin that is again almost impossible to see since it has been changed by the moisture of the acetone. And over time, as it dries out again, then it becomes more opaque and cloudy looking. And again, it can be any of several different colors. This is when it is seen and becomes obvious.

    That is what I think happened to the Saint. Or, it is also possible that the Saint merely had some ordinary dip residue left on it. The same kind of thing happens when you dip a coin and don't do do it properly. Over time, as that residue dries out it becomes visible.

    Putty, which is what many thought was on the Saint, has an entirely different look. Well, that's hard to quantify because it is similar in some ways but at the same time it is also different. What made me reasonably certain that it was not putty on the Saint is that putty, when applied to a coin, is usually applied in very small quantities. Imagine if you will that you are trying to cover up and fill in contact marks, or small scratches & hairlines with the putty. That is its purpose. So when apply it you do it with minute quantities and cover only the mark, the scratch or whatever. You strive to not get any on the adjoining areas. You do not spread it around over a large area of the coin like the way that Saint looked. Unless you are an idiot anyway. Because if you do, even a novice will be able to see it at a glance. Properly applied, putty is very difficult to see even for trained and experienced eyes when it is freshly done. But it is not impossible to see, merely difficult. It is only after time when the putty begins to dry out that it becomes more visible and easily seen. That's why the TPGs are often fooled. And that is part of the reason why the TPGs are now using the technology they are now using, to detect things like putty that their graders miss because they either 1 - don't have the experience or 2 - just plain miss it because they are not looking carefully enough.

    You see, putty, even though it may match the color of the coin perfectly, it can never have the same reflective qualities that the metal does and so it will show up as small spots or tiny thin lines that break the luster. You just have to look for it and know enough to recognize it when you see it. Few people can do that.
     
    GDJMSP, Oct 19, 2010
    #78 + Quote Reply
  20. oval_man

    oval_man Elliptical member

    Thanks for your thorough answer. It's what I thought, because I'm referring to a lot of slabbed coins, including recent ASE's which should not have come in contact with PVC, but when you had answered my earlier question that it might be PVC, it gave me cause for alarm.

    I've seen PVC damage—the telltale green—on coins but not many instances of it. I rarely look at raw coins anymore. But I've never seen—and have never had pointed out to me—putty used on a coin to hide defects, although I've certainly read about it as a major doctoring trick.

    Thanks again.
     
    oval_man, Oct 19, 2010
    #79 + Quote Reply
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