Pricey toned Morgan...

You are a good collector and I am glad you have fun. I feel the same about ancients, no price guides and buy a coin if it is worth that much to you. I have no idea how my wife will do when she sells my coins when I am dead, but I sure as heck will have enjoyed them until then. I hope none of my posts upset you or any others who like toned coins, especially since I used to buy almost exclusively toned coins when I collected US coins. You have the right temperment and view of the HOBBY.

My only points about toned coins has only ever been the same as when Commemoratives were hot, warning collectors about the inflated premiums, or any other "hot" item in numismatics, that of being careful to not get swept up in the momentum unless you truly are just buying a coin for your own enjoyment and not expecting price appreciation. Its just too many collectors come into the hobby and buy whatever is "hot", get burned in a few years, and leave thinking the entire hobby is a scam. That is simply what my warnings have been about.

Peace.

 

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Toned coins are certainly not for the faint of heart as price spikes and plunges certainly can occur but that phenomenon can occur in other areas of collecting especially those tied to bullion prices....I would agree caution needs to be taken but those not intimately familar with the trends. I will say that contrary to what I see posted a lot across all of the forums....toned coins are not a recent fad as they have been actively collected by knowledgable numismatists for at least 3 or 4 decades if not longer. Yes to some toning is damaged and in the case of the government, they did offer toned coins at a discounted level with the GSA morgans but a lot of dealers and collectors have made killings off those coins over the past decade or two.

The last thing I want to say on this subject as I have not been offended in the least by any of the comments, opinions, statements posted in this thread....I simply hope that in time some of the opinions could be expressed in a more tactful way vs using terms like stupid, or crazy to describe what someone is willing to spend to procure coins they like to collect as I just think it opens up a can of worms when one could simply state that they would never pay that much for the coin themselves and move on....but hey that's just me.

 

really this thread is very helpful in showing the diverse opinion of peoples'.....glanced and saw something about if your a millionaire ect....really if I was a millionaire I would invest in "greater" coins...such as an MS-68 with say even better toning than the one being discussed

 

I am glad that someone annointed you with the ability to decide for the rest of the collecting population what is foolish and what is not....maybe you could make a list for the rest of us. Admins are supposed to be fair and balanced and yes...use tact but I have seen many such posts from you where that is simply not the case. The fact that you feel coin forums are the reason coins fetch moon money shows how little you really know about toned coin collecting.....please ask Bryan Sonnier, Ron Sirna, Mike defalco, and Andy Kimmel how much time they spen on forums a decade ago...or today for that mater. There is a whole world out there that cares nothing about talking about coins or any other collectible online for that mater so please do not overvalue yourself or your opinions because your an admin on a coin forum. I for one am not impressed......

 

Allow me the honor......... VAMS, 1937D 3legger, 1955 DDO, High Relief Gold, Die Clashes,Off centered coins, Mule's, 1972 DDO, Any of the No S proofs, 1982 No P Dime, MS70 Bullion, Wounded Eagle Sac's, No Motto's, and anything else you can think of that might make coin collecting fun!:yes:

 

Are your sure that is a complete list......I Dont see 1922 no D's or Hard Time tokens lol

 

Dont forget these stupid things LMAO

 

I don't see how using words like "stupid" and "crazy" is "telling it like it is". But rather, you are expressing an opinion, not necessarily a fact. Not to mention, how do you propose to define those words to the extent that there is general agreement regarding their meaning?

I also disagree that forums are the reason such coins bring big money. I and many other dealers and collectors have paid large multiples for gorgeously toned coins since long before coin forums even existed. And many of today's large buyers have little or no awareness of or care about what is posted on the forums.

 

I find myself not wanting to even comment on this subject anymore. Nobody listens! A while back, I explained in a very detailed rant the two main reasons why toned coins are not a fad. I was responding to the gentleman from Chicago whose username escapes me at the moment. In addition, I can only view my previous posts up to the last 500 and can't find the post to quote.

Needless to say, this is the same conversation with the same members spewing the same opinions with some notable new comers. Now Doug you can say that toned coins have only been driving significant premiums for 7 years but the Appalachian Jefferson appeared 10 years ago and brought big premiums from jump street. I have posted Heritage auction archives of rainbow toned Morgans that drove 5X+ wholesale from as far back as 2002. And that leads precisely to the two reasons why toned coins are not a fad. The advent of the internet and the improvements in digital photography caused the explosion in the toned coin market. In the 80's & 90's most collectors had never even seen a rainbow toned coin. B&M dealers didn't display them and you had to ask if you wanted to see the toned coins. Internet auctions with decent photos changed all that forever.

All you old guys who think that someday toned coins are going to be valued the same as an untoned coin because that is how you remember the coin world 25 years ago are dreaming. The availability via the internet and advances in the quality of digital photography are only getting better. Rainbow toned coins may not suit every collector but I know all to well the zeal that they stir up in some collectors. I see no end to the so called "fad" called the rainbow toned coin market.

The premium for the coin in question is not even 20X wholesale and only about $4K total. I remember a toned Roanoke that sold for $46K and had a $42K premium.

Largest Numismatic Premium

Given the quality of the toning on the coin in the OP, the price tag does not surprise me at all.

 

I agree that premuims for toned coins is not a fad,, and agree with Lehigh that much of the boom is due to the quality and distribution of photo's... where distribution is in agreement with Doug, in that forums do offer a venue for dissemination of toners, and thier appeal does bring new money into the market.

I am in TOTAL agreement with Doug in his directness to this forum and ungloved approach... and will take this opportunity as a collector to thank him for is guidance and directness in this and all matters in which I have seen him offer opinion... (including those not favorable to me).

As has been said in this forum before, I think "most" (not all), but most collectors reading this thread consider investment a part of hobby. Now when toners reach the premiums of this coin, I think those of us that have been around the hobby for some time owe it to newbee's to warn them of similar premiums for other segments and thier eventual return, or depreciation, or regression, back to the mean or normalicy..... this warning may not mean anything to folks who don't really care about money spent on coins or in pursuit of the aquisition of toners... for me at least, money matters.

I get the most enjoyment from the aquisition of a new coin when I feel it is both beautiful, and at a good price... I don't think this coin offers that.

So, to all newbee's, and to all hobby peers, and to all hobby elite.... this collector/investor will say it one last time:
wrt this coin:
Stupid is as stupid does. (speaking of the action here, not the person).
Run Forest,,, ruuuuuuuuuuuun. (speaking to the collector/investor hobbiest here).
Very nice coin, and rare toning pattern, I'd snap it up in a second (speaking to all Billionaire's or Multimillionaire's)

 

Thats it!!!!! im consigning my coins with Krytonitecomics and getting out before I lose my rear end........however can I thank you for your warning

 

You could buy that coin and then sell it to me for $800.... I guess I'll call us square after that ; )

It would be very interesting to know if you or Krytonit bid on this coin,,, or at least what you feel it's worth. (maybe after the auction ends you can make your bids known to us). Not being a smart as* here,,, honestly interested if anyone here would or will walk the walk with respect to this toner auction.....

 

I dont collect Morgans, I do however want to grab a monster Morgan one day, but right now I cannot afford to buy much because all of my money is going towards completing my NGC 67* silver Roosevelt set and my PCGS 67FB Mercury Short set. With that said I will estimate the coin sells for $5200 with the premium. I would not be surprised if it went to $6000

 

I already cleary stated what I felt the coin is worth and I also made it clear that the most I have spent on a toner was $1500...I do not have deep pockets that would allow such a purchase as I am a single father with two kids. If I had $4k disposable income I would not hesitate to purchase one of Lloyd's monster toned morgans currently in this auction. How much will it go for....I haven't a clue as again there are no price guides and I have seen coins toned an untoned sell for $2000 at auction one week and less than a month later they sell in a different auction for $3500 so coins in general have a lot of volitality.

As for your advise and Doug's advise about staying away.....you could say the same thing about bullion coins...or classic commems...or 3 cent nickels...on any number of other coins that are not necessarily good investments these days but that others may like to actively collect. If you want to be an investor be and investor and provide investment tips to new collector but please do not desguise your opinions under the thin vail of hobby protection becuase your not trying to protect anyone you are trying to convice new collectors that you know the "right" way to collect and that only nut jobs pay through the teeth for monster toners. I can't argue that some of us aren't nuts but before you start giving tips and advice let me know what you are basing your opinions on? I have about $300k in toned coins sales on Ebay this year alone....probably $100k in purchases so I know the hobby...I know the trends and I have spent years fighting to educate collectors about coin doctoring and AT coins rampant on Ebay. That's the type of education we should be seeing on this forum...not the kind that labels collectors becuase they purchase professionally certified coins from other hobby professionals and you personally don't agree with these purchases unless they fall are under a certain price level. All the talk in all of the threads in all the forums still come down to once simple thing......buy what you like and let others do the same period. There is no reason for collectors to bash/label other collectors becuase they don't agree with their choices. This isn't about being PC....I am not a sensative guy...I consider myself quite pragmatic so for me it comes down to common sense. If I walk into a donut shop and I like glazed donuts...I am not going to walk up to someone eating a powdered donut and call them nuts for their choice no matter how strongly I felt about it.

 

As I have offered no alternative "right" way to collect in this thread, I don't know how you got the impression I was trying to pursuade anyone of anything.
I was just trying to directly answer the OP's question, where he/she called out paying 4k for a common date colorful coin....
... to which I can only say would be equivalent to paying $1,000 to put colorful sprinkles on a powered doughnut. (IMO)

 

For my own edification and probably for others, could you define"premium"? Which coins has the bigger premium, a $10 list coin that sells for $50 or a $1000 coin that sells for $2500?

 

The 10 dollar coin has the bigger premium
$10 coin has 5X premium
$1000 coin has 2.5X premium