That is no doubt true, but it is also changing. The problem is that older coins from the most famous estates are the ones most likely to have been dipped as this was the standard practice for the top Numismatists until very recently. As we've come to understand coins, storage, metallurgy and grading better, the trend has shifted away from dipping and towards an appreciation of natural toning. In the case of the coin that I posted to start this thread, the whiteness of that particular example would make me less inclined to drop the 9 grand or so that is being asked for it. I'd rather see it with some natural toning. Ruben
Those coins would only be 30 years old and they likely did have tone. If you took a fresh silver coin and laid it next to it you are likely capable of measuring it. A 100 years is a LOT longer.... Ruben
This is what I expect from a 100 year old coin that has been well taken cared of. Nice, even, natural toning. And I'd bet even this coin has been dipped. Ruben
FYI . Hopefully this will clear up some things . Since the coin in question is presently owned by J.H. Cline , I contacted him . Here is what he had to say after I asked the question posed in this thread if it's impossible for coin of this age " to exist in this condition ( photo provided ) without having been professional enhanced ( cleaned or dipped ) at one point or another " , as was stated in this thread . His answer " I would agree that many of the 1917 TY 1's have probably been dipped in the past . Silver does tarnish UNLESS kept in a environment that prevents it, and most coins were not kept that way. I do also believe that some of these have survived in their original, uncleaned condition , having personally seen several examples in tarnish inhibiting drawers/cabinets, that were kept that way since their minting. Bankers often kept these in specially made containers and I have personally seen several collections of this caliber over the years . How many are out there-unknown. " JH Cline. I would like to also note that he believes that both PCGS & NGC do a great job in determining if a coin has been cleaned/dipped. There is a story in this issue of Coin world discussing these TPG's technological advancements in this area . So for me , is it possible for this piece to have been one of those that were properly stored to prevent the toning or tarnishing process ? YES . Is it possible that this coin was dipped ? Of course , but it is not totally unrealistic to think it all original . A coin in hand is worth two in the bush. Oh wait , thats another story. haha
Of course it's possible, no one has ever denied that. But - which one is more probable ? That is really the question. When the odds are 8, or more, to 2 against it being original then more likely than not it has been dipped !
Have you read about the new "coin sniffer" technology? Per the PCGS website Do you see the mention of coin dip anywhere? Do you know why? Because they would literally go out of buisness if they refused to holder coins that had been dipped properly at some point.
That and because even their fancy new technology cannot tell if the coin has been dipped or not. To be able to detect dipping their would have to be some dip residue left on the coin. And if there was any dip residue left, then it would continue to act on the surface of the coin. Either by eating into the metal or causing rapid and unsightly toning. Dips after all are acids.
No - I'm sure if your serious about it you can find chemical and structural markers for dipping. Have no doubt about it. Ruben
Not sure about markers of the dip, but if someone was really serious you could probably correlated undipped versus dipped surface reflection since the more you dip the less of the "cartwheel effect" you get, meaning the surface is losing its luster. Bottom line to everyone is properly done, and only done a couple of times, dipping does not diminish a coin appreciably so therefor the market finds it acceptable. I would agree with Doug on number of coins dipped versus undipped, but would up it to 95-5 relationship for any coin over 80 years old or more. There just were not good mass market storage choices for the most part back then.
That is what some of the Professional TPG's are being successful at being able to do . Will they refuse to grade these " professionally enhanced " coins ? I would say definitely not . But the Technology is available .
Its not the same I believe. The problems with "coin doctors" and TPG'ers is a fight over using putty and other foreign substances that enhance a coin temporarily, then become noticable. This is making TPG'ers pay up on their guarantee, that is what has them mad. If the coin doctors did something that never appeared later, and TPG'ers did not have to pay out on their guarantee, then I doubt they would be filing lawsuits and "fighting the good fight". It is the fact they are on the hook, and the doctoring is showing up later in the slabs. Dipping is not doctoring, never has been. Dip too much and a coin loses too much luster and it won't get slabbed, but it is easily noticable and will not lose luster later in the slab.
The main thing to remember is that this was STANDARD practice until a few years ago and is still prevalent, making it VERY unlikely that these coins survive in their original undipped states. Furthermore, in discussing your follow up post, the biggest collectors doctored coins, flat out, with tools and carvings. This was especially true of old coppers. So the TPGs are really stuck between a rock and a hard place with regard to these kind of activities, regardless on how they feel about it. They have to respond to the real coin market as it exists, otherwise they have no product. And they will follow market trends accordingly. Ruben
