1903 (Year of the Meiji 36) Japan 50 sen coin

I recently purchased a 1903 50 sen Japanese coin. I was wondering if anyone could tell me the details surrounding this coin, such as correct weight, diameter, etc.. I'm not too skeptical of it being a counterfeit/fake as the seller I bought it from is reputable but I'd like to know more for the future. As it stands, this coin is 31mm in diameter and I've seen other citations regarding that figure. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

 

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the weight is supposed to be 13.48g. i don't know about the diameter, my krause doesn't say.

 

Diameter 30.55 mm Weight 13.48 gm Silver Content 0.3467 oz Fineness 80% Silver Mintage 1,503,068

FINE VF XF UNC BU
22.50 37.50 70.00 425.00 1,300.00

(info sourced from numismaster.com)

 

Thanks very much with the quick replies, now I need to find an accurate electronic scale to find out the weight.

 

I wish I knew how accurate the pictures in the Japanese Numismatic Dealers Association catalog are. On your coin the tip of the dragon's tail is between the 4th & 5th spinal projections (like the tail on the earlier 50 sen type), but in the illustration the tip is between the 7th & 8th spines! (Under magnification it looks like a drawing, not a photo, but I don't know for sure.)

The mere fact that your source is a reputable dealer doesn't really give me any comfort. All Meiji silver has been counterfeited, and if yours is a counterfeit, it is a very, very good one that could easily fool a non-expert.

 

I imagine then I have no choice but to have the coin professionally graded? I cannot say I really want to do this, on cost alone. I say reputable on the basis I haven't heard any ill of them and that prior transactions have proved to be true. If there is an alternative to slabbing the coin, I'd like to know, thanks.

 

I personally don't think the coin is real, but I will check Japanese coin sites. If real it would be a semi-key date, but the full retail value for a genuine coin according to the 2011 JNDA coin catalog is only about $80 for that condition.

Here's a real 1903 50 sen coin. Comparing that with your coin, I see what appear to be some discrepancies in the Chinese/Kanji characters, especially in the 3 (三) and year (年)

http://www.bidders.co.jp/dap/sv/nor1?id=154117117&p=y#body

 

I don't see much discrepancy in the kanji for san (3) but I think see what you mean on toshi (year). I also notice the the dragon's tail and foot appear to be closer on the bidders image and that the pearl spiral on mine is perhaps not as true (round). Thanks for the update, I appreciate it.

It's a shame that is it looking dark, but I have no choice but to finally track down a professional grader.

 

Maybe a side-by-side comparison would help. After further comparing your coin with a genuine item, there seem to be some discrepancies in the dragon details as well as the lettering. Personally, I still think your coin is probably not genuine, and given that the real coin is selling for 5000 Japanese yen, or a little more than $60, and is in better condition, paying to get it graded is probably a waste of money.

 

I'll have to agree on that, especially if the fake suspicious turn out to be true. A real waste of money. What I meant by "professional grader" was not so much a group such as ICCS and the like but someone who can accurately check the authenticity, in my case a local expert I've been directed to. That's what I am hoping to do over the next week and trying to get the coin weighed and measured properly. I recently have had access to an electronic scale but it's mainly for food and only has 2 decimal points for ounces and none for grams.

 

According to my Japanese Numismatic Dealers Association catalogue, the diameter for a 1903 should be 30.9mm

 

That's encouraging since mine measures very close to that, it makes more sense than than the 30.5 - 30.55. Today I took it to a local Asian coin expert and upon completion of inspection as best he saw it looks and feels legitimate silver. The coin was weighed there, although I was hasty and only checked the grams value, however it came to 13.4 which also is not too bad. Yesterday I took high resolution (600dpi at 8.5 x 11 inch area) scans of the obverse and reverse which I uploaded. I'm not sold just yet as I plan to have another individual inspect the coin from an auction house - I figure if this guy gives it the thumbs down then I'll bend to it being a copy but if not then noprblms.

 

I can't really tell anything from these photos because the coin is so small.

Anyway, please let us know when you get more information about this coin. I still think it's fake because of the various discrepancies. A Japanese dealer I showed the pictures to also thinks it's a fake.

 

Small? The latest images are high resolution scans, they are anything but small. You need to click on the image 4 times before you can see the actual image size. If you cannot see them in the proper size I'll upload a zip file with the uncompressed images later.

 

Based on the latest pictures I'm leaning toward contemporary counterfeit, made to cheat a merchant, not a collector.

 

fahlim03, it would help if you cropped the photos, as in remove the excess background around the coin.

I'll have to contridicate both hontonai and collector1966 as I believe this case is dismissed too quickly. A quick search under "柳生淑郎" book of "近代貨幣分類図鑑" published way back in 1997 actually shows that there are two major varieties for this particular year.

上切り平リボン　＆　上切り凹リボン - something to do with the ribbons being flat and concave.

Argument is this book is published more than 13 years ago and there could be more varieties out there that's not well documented. Another one of my points is if it is indeed a comtempory counterfeit that do match the technical composition of what a genuine coin is, I would be VERY interested to see it in person.

So let's first establish if it does indeed fit the technical data of 30.9mm and 13.48g like others have mentioned. Most counterfeiters fail to pass this very basic step.

 

The ribbon is not what is in question here anyway-- it's the lettering, and the details in the dragon, among other things. Perhaps you'd like to compare the OP's coin with this "flat ribbon" from 1903? Pay special attention to the thickness and positioning of the lettering on the two coins.

http://www16.ocn.ne.jp/~q_coin/tegawari/tega.html

 

It looks like I didn't ask the right question in the first time.

My question is: How do we know and be 100% certain that it is not an undocumented variety instead of a counterfeit?

Until more details come back with respect to the weight and diameter, it's still too early to disregard it.

 

"Close to" isn't "equals", and 13.4 certainly isn't 13.48.

The Japanese Mint's standards are, and since it began producing modern coinage in 1870 have been, quite strict, so the piece needs to be more precisely measured.

Wear doesn't reduce diameter, and the wear shown in the pictures wouldn't reduce weight by nearly 1/10th of a gram. I for one would more seriously consider my friend gxseries' suggestion if the exact diameter and weight turn out to be correct.

 

Interesting, I did not know further discussion came up.

As for the "close to" points, I agree it's not definite which I would say unfortunate given the fact I personally do not have an accurate electronic mass scale nor a proper diameter gauge. However, as I've seen with other counterfeits the weight and diameter are usually (not always) not within 99% and up of the actual figures, especially with respect to both simultaneously.

I know of some more professional coin dealers in the area but they aren't nearby. To perhaps put it to rest I'll try to make an effort to visit at least one and try to gather more accurate numbers.