PCGS and Questionable Toning Designation

ASE's will tone quickly due to the purity levels of the silver versus 90% coinage and the fact silver is so very reactive. It is in fact the 10% copper in traditional silver coinage that keeps it from toning quicker.

I was wondering about this color and I wonder if it were slabbed before it became that color. I would hope a TPG'er would not think that is market acceptable if they saw it, if the photo is representative.

 

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Please re-read my earlier explanation. This is digital image manipulation of a coin that may have had tone, but not this severely.

 

Understood, that is why I notated, "if the photo is representative". I have seen coins tone in the slab though, some fortunately some unfortunately. I saw a MS 65 RED s VDB once completely brown, but the owner told me it turned brown in 6 months after slabbing.

 

It's not a question of "IF" the photo is representative. It's screamingly not representative, past feedback for this seller supports this claim and PCGS would not have seen this photo prior to slabbing the coin. They receive the coin not a picture of the coin, determine if the coin can be graded, grade the coin, slab it and return the coin to the owner/customer. Only then, did the seller make and manipulated the image of the coin to misrepresent the coin for sale in this auction on eBay. It's not even worth questioning PCGS going by this *image* of the coin, since the coin cannot be seen in hand to compare it to the image, an image which has been digitally altered.

 

I agree the coin looks AT. I've always sort of wondered if there's a way that the doctors could tone a coin like that after it has been certified by PCGS. Since the slabs are NOT airtight, isn't it possible that PCGS graded the coin while blast white, then a doctor treated the coin (while in the slab) with some sort of gas that toned the coin????

 

Anything is possible I suppose but in the case of the OPs coin, this is digital image manipulation. However, hypothetically speaking based on your question, it's very unlikely... and whatever would be used to AT the coin (heat, gases, etc...) would be that much harder to control their effect on the just the coin and not have an unintended effect on the plastic of the slab and paper of the label within. It would also be troublesome to clear the space of air within the slab of gas, or if it condenses and become liquid to cleanly dry without spots or any residue. Too many factors to risk the expense of having slabbed the coin before AT. Just easier to digitally manipulate an already toned coin that achieved a grade like the OPs coin.

 

Anyone else think that coin may have been one of the ones that someone was able to color after it was already in the holder? I've heard rumors about using really advanced stuff to drill into the side of the slab and introduce chemicals to color the coin and then filling the tiny hole and making it undetectable.

 

You would hear more than I about rumors like that, but I do not think it would be very hard. Plastic is pretty easy to fill leaving little trace of the drill hole. When I worked at a automotive parts manufacturer, the plant used plastic parts, drilled them to connect to the stainless steel, then put new resin on the plastic. I swear I could never tell where the connection holes were at, the fill was so good. This was when we weren't even trying to cover anything up.

 

Are there any known examples? Examples confirmed by a TPG to have been doctored this way?

 

I'd bet there are some cases known to the TPG's but I don't know for sure. This was just talk I overheard from people "In the know" at a major coin show I attended a couple of years ago.

 

I agree that many things-- many unlikely things, many difficult things to achieve, etc. are possible or have been tried and were successfully passed in transactions by the doctors. This idea certainly sounds plausible.

Perhaps one day we will hear of a large suit action being made public by a major TPG once enough fraudulent examples have been discovered and investigations more thoroughly uncover sufficient evidence to prosecute those involved in such activity. Doing so would probably be necessary to protect their business, profits and maintain consumer confidence in TPGs should this be a big enough problem. If it's not widespread and threatening the TPGs business, it will likely remain a minor threat to consumers, dealers and TPGs.

 

Perhaps a few words from the horses mouth would help settle things. Two years ago, I responded to a thread on the NGC forum in which I basically accused this E-Bay seller of photoshopping his images. A few posts later, he responded to my posts. In his post he admits to photoshopping his pictures. His username is Braddick and he is a well respected member of both the NGC and PCGS forums.

Peeve: Off Color Pictures

I like Pat and don't think he is a dishonest seller. However, I do think his photography skills are lacking and he does use photoshop in an attempt to make the photos better represent the color. I also think some of his photos are over saturated and don't represent the actual appearance of the coin. It appears that is what happened in this case but then again, I have not seen the coin in hand.

PS. On a sadder note, the OP of that NGC thread passed away a few weeks ago!

 

Thanks Paul.

 

Have you (and the others) read the book Coin Chemistry? It's well worth the read!

 

ASE's might seem to NT faster, I don't collect them so I can't say for sure. That said....I highly suspect they are frequently speed-toned because they are relatively cheap bullion coins. If the experiment goes bad, the coin is still worth bullion value. If the experiment goes well, it's off to ebay to try to rake in a huge profit. Personally, if I was a collector of these, I'd NEVER buy a toned example under any circumstance.....slabbed or not. Don't get me wrong, I love toned coins, but I absolutely do not trust toned bullion coins for the reasons I said above.

 

I have not read that book. I've kept myself from reading it after hearing some less than favorable reviews about the author.

 

Well bro, it's a controversial topic. Weimar took a stand that toning is damage and "let the cat out of the bag" on how to tone in the major TPG's slabs. Nonetheless, controversy aside, it's a fantastic and interesting read into the subject.

 

I'm sure I will get to it eventually. However, the comments I recall, seemed to question the man more than the controversy of the topic and his ideas about it. I'm sure now that you brought his book up and I mentioned this aspect, some more opinions are bound to chime in...

 

wowww...selling for > 1grand$$

 

Will have to re-check tool haus feedback in about a week or so... should be interesting to see if it ignites any disappointment in the buyer or if the coin is returned/refunded and ends up relisted.