Check out this: http://shop.ebay.com/coinsplusinc/m.html?_npmv=3 I find it impossible to believe that all these Peace Dollars are naturally this nice. I'm thinking this guy regularly cleans his inventory. That said, these all look "natural" to me. Thoughts? I clearly don't want to be buying cleaned coins, but nor do I want something unattractively toned. Not much left in Peace Dollar land. I compare this guy's inventory to reputable online dealers I frequent, and their inventory doesn't look nearly as good. He's got to be cleaning, right? Based on how these look, does this matter? Do the TPG's still grade coins that have been cleaned?
I think you are mixing the term cleaning with the term dipping. Both are equally bad to me, but dipping is a commonly used practice especially among Morgans and Peace dollars. Damage done? I'm not an expert, but as far as I'm concerned it doesn't damage 'em. Some collects are in LOVE with blast white coins, I'd take tarnished over blast white any day.
I Just got 2 high grade (uncirculated details) Lincolns from Great Sounthern. I think this is the 5 or 6th coin. THis one like all the others has been uh cleeeee.....ddddiiii..... lets just say enhanced. On LIncolns, they get the highest bids, seem to have the biggest following, and have 99.999999 feedback rating. One person about a month ago or more did post 4 negative since his coins came back from a TPG as cleaned. There are 2 distinct coin markets. I still search for listings with cleaned, dipped, scratched, damaged in the description however I there are less and less coins available at a reasonable price in just the last year alone. I think others are thinking the same way I do. I look for well struck coins. Give me the dipped coin that came from the first strike any and every day before the MS67 coin that was the last one struck from that die.
Um, If you were offered an MS60 dipped, first strike 1923 Peace dollar or a MS67 completely tarnished, last struck 1923 Peace dollar for $20 and you could only pick one, which would you pick? You have to be crazy to pick the MS60 over the MS67. Just to give you an idea of the prices, MS60 - $15-$17 MS67 - north of $4000
I understand the debate over cleaned to the point of damaged, but I'd have to say some, especially the TPG'ers are way too picky with the old stuff that has all been cleaned and retoned probably several times, yet still has great eye appeal. So, I buy what I like in the old stuff. And, I really enjoy collecting moderns from the mint or rolls because I know they are 100% original, uncleaned, and if there's any toning, it's NT. With the intense emphasis put on detecting what has been done to the coin, rather than how good it looks, the hobby appears to have become more a source of stress, rather than relaxation and enjoyment.
It's not about price for me. I would take a MS60 dipped, first strike 1923 Wheatie for $150 over a MS66BN for completely tarnished, last struck 1923 Wheatie for $25 .. I am not crazy to pick the MS60 over the MS67 because the details in the 67 are so crappy that it might look AU - I search and collect well struck coins first and foremost! Full detailed San Fran Wheaties from the 20's are my current mission in life. It is my opinion and only my opinion, I don't think I have ever heard anyone say this... I think that coins should be graded for the details of the strike first, then detractions like knicks and dings second, toning from oxidation whether introduced over a few seconds or a few decades could be factored in, but since copper is so reactive with so many different things, It just seems normal to me. I mean I have a Harris folder of pennies that I have collected them (like woodies) that exhibit a red color and I am not talking about MS red. Also have a black and green collection! The purple hues on some Uncirculated pennies has me baffled .....
So you're telling me that you'll take a $15 dollar coin instead of a $4000 coin? You can choose how you collect but...
I agree 110% as an avid collector, just like the post I just responded too. I think the majority of posts on these message boards are from people obsessed about the costs/values of the coin - more than the coin itself. I guess if I had spent the last 40 years making sure that I only bought high end certified examples of coins and then the market all the sudden (last 10 years) is full of the same coin, with the same details, selling at a fraction of the amount I paid. I would be upset and vocal and call those same detailed coins as worthless. In other words, why would I support a trend that would devalue what I have? I guess I wouldn't
But what? Please finish your thought. I don't understand. To me it simple. The 4k coin looks like crap next to the $15 one . I pretty sure that in this hypothetical situation, that and standing a hundred Joe Q Public people and asking them to pick.. my guess is they 99% will pick the prettier coin. (there is always one crazy in the group! Now with that said. Not that it matters in this thread. I do buy coins with the cost to value ratio in mind - lots....Any given week, I enter hundred of bids at a 50% value limit, with the thought of maybe selling some day. For example, I recently just got 20 consecutive PCGS 1940-s MS66 for $300 - got another 20k of 30,40,50's wheaties for $700. on the other hand I got 4k of badly dinged and spotted Uncirculated 1980 memorials for 3 cents each.
It's pretty simple - the original question he asked you posed the choice of getting a $4000 coin for $20 or getting a $15 coin for $20. I feel pretty safe in saying that 99.9999% of people take the $4000 coin given those choices.
Well - in my opinion only - GSC include pictures I just do not trust. And with those pictures I think the prices go to high. But just my opinion - never bought a coin from them. I also see what EyeEatWheaties is talking about. He looks for well struck coins even if they have been cleaned. No problem for that. I will say you can find well struck coins cleaned, raw or slabbed. And they are allowed to collect as they want. What I will say is if you go to liquidate your collection you may not get what you want for the coins because of the issues. Me - I would rather have a well struck, nice coin for $20 rather than a $15 cleaned coin. The big "but" becomes for some coins I may take the cheaper cleaned coin. It is just a personal choice.
Raw coin only from seller I know!!! but other that Ngc -Pcgs Ebay coin the only one I will buy are Ngc or Pcgs.then before I buy/bid I ck out the Ngc # make there right before I bid or buy! there the link below for cell phones. m.ngccoin.com
Your post reminds me that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, to me his peace dollars do not look desirable, to each his own I guess.
I've actually have been to the store in the OP, I personally won't buy from them out of their B&M store or off of ebay! When I was in their B&M I would say 80% of their coins were cleaned. You ask to see something and they would walk back to the back room a grab 1 or 2 pieces and then come back. After a while of not liking anything they bring you they get a little snotty.
It's funny how it you can get the answer you want by the way a question is asked. You turned his question around and put the $$ first where the dollar value was only mention lastly. I am not sure why this is so hard to understand. Take the $ signs out of the question Here is the simple version of what I am trying to get at. I am fairly certain that most everyone would pick the bright coin with crisp details over the tarnished coin with worn looking details (soft strike). I bet that after they have chose the wrong coin, that when the values are declared, that they won't believe you. This is why, I believe that places like GSC "doctored coins are us" do so well with their sales. I mean look at their feed back. Everyone is thrilled with their win. The collector is happy, the seller has to be doing well, their listings continue to generate tons of interest and bids. I look and bid on their wheaties all the time, rarely win. Seems to me like, this is all a positive thing if anyone is losing or getting hurt, an outfit like that with the amount of volume they do would have certainly been called out by now. Would they not?
Once again, not everyone likes blast white coins. Also, strike isn't everything. Like Doug, it's safe to say that most coin collectors will choose the $4000 coin. Like you said earlier, there's always one crazy in the group!
