AT or NT? You be the judge!

With all due respect, you have no idea what one of the coins toned with your product will look like in 30 years -- properly or improperly stored. Chemistry is not fortune telling.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

I agree. I know the chemistry pretty well. You are right but the deposition at an increased rate could result in unstable matrixes. That is all I am saying, that accelerated toning products and methods have been around a long time. Some were fine and lasted, others failed in time and damaged the coin or discolored. It looks like your product is fine, I was just suggesting that if you could design some accelerate aging on coins with your product it might help some people agree to use it is all. You have to admit that the chemical layering with your product is "somewhat", (may be slightly, I don't know), chemically different that layering that would happen over a 30 year timeframe.

Just a suggestion man. I don't dislike AT really, I just worry about the long term storage of the coins.

 

Yay.. The man himself finally wrote a response to me!

The benefit?? Didn't I just I read something from you that all coins have toning or will and do tone? Help me out, I would think coloring or re-coloring would be a surface application?? Does re-coloring mean that the coin was colored before it was polished? Ok I feel better now I just had to be the intelligent donkey. I would have hoped your first message to me would have been more intelligent. Ok .. all jokes/ribbing aside.

I am not a professional conservationist (obviously) I do not have a degree in metallurgy. I am a hobbyist. A collector of Lincoln Cents. I should mention I also, do buy coins as an investment or as a savings account, but mostly just cause I currently like getting as many as I can. This whole subject of toning is just one facet of the hobby that I enjoy meddling with.

This coin was "gassed" similar with the way Thad's product will work if I remember what I read from him on it. In order to remove the current color on that 19s, you would have to wipe vigorously under pressure or I guess dip - which I know nothing about.

1. One benefit is that now the coin will not likely take on "carnival" or "artificial" color(s)s as time goes on.

2. Another benefit would be in creating or establishing or discussing current value that a coin has in its various states. For example, I could post both pictures on eBay with no description and see which one sells for the most, which one gets the most views, etc etc. It would be an interesting test. Especially since the "before" coin doesn't show the dents and dings the way the "after" coin does. BTW I never noticed the off center strike on this coin until now.

3. Another benefit: And most important IMO is for the sake of education for everyone who has read this far. I am sharing what I know to work and sometime not work.

4. Another benefit for me, is to get people who post on here, who have an opinion, to voice it so that I learn more. I just learned that sticking a penny in my pants is another method to age/tone/color. I heard of ants in your pants, but pennies in your pants? So cool! Learn something everyday! That's almost as good as the guy who prefers brown over pink. lol good stuff!

From what I have read over the last few days from you (which is a minuscule fraction of your 26k posts) is that I gather you are a long time serious collector, who writes very well and has an extensive deep knowledge of US coins and is eager to share your knowledge. I respect that.

So, since you are having a hard time seeing benefits. maybe you just need your glasses adjusted.

 

Putting them near old sulphur paper in an enclosed environment, and warming it up, also works well. Wetting the coin/paper also speeds up the process.

 

It would look the same as any other toned coin would look after 30 years. It all depends on storage. Fortune telling is not necessary, the science behind the chemistry is fact.

 

The adsorption is fixed by the area of exposed metal. The rate is sufficiently slow that the toning will be evenly distributed the same as the natual process. As the metallic sulfide is formed it goes though a distinct color progression that is determined by the thickness of the sulfide layer, i.e. thin film interference. The progression for silver is yellow>gold>reddish>purple>blue>black. The reaction with VT is slow enough that the collector will be able to stop the toning when they want.

My point is that there is no "unstable matrix". The formation of the metallic sulfide will progress until there is no more metal to react with.

 

Here is another test coin, an over-dipped 1910 Lincoln. It was toned over a six week period.

 

Get penny whimsy and learn other methods also.

I have no problem with this product or his other product(verdigone). Heck - people are doing a lot of this already. Why not something better? It is already going on. And if it is so good the experts can't tell the I won't be able to tell. Now so far as I am concerned this product would probably be used on damaged(cleaned) coins - it will not replace the luster from high grade coins. So you just have to look for it. Will people try to take advantage of people - of course, they do it today(and some of them are good). This guy seems to do a good job - http://www.early-copper.com/recoloring.html.

badthad - what would this do on a polished coin like that 1919-S?

 

Mark - It would darken it but I think the "mirrored" surfaces would show underneath the toning. I suspect it would look better than the OP's toning method. I could spot that as a retoned coin from a mile away. Based on the heavy polishing, I doubt anything could make that coin look normal again.

Honestly, I have done very few experiments thus far so my experience is limited. As I stated before, the product is a long way away from being sold yet. Right now it's hard for me to make predictions of the outcome on any given coin. More than anything, I started this thread to see what the reaction would be. It's just as I anticipated so far and I appreciate it all, good and bad.

 

Uh.... Ok.. Thad, now I am really confused. Keep in mind I am a nooooob when it comes to discussing coins and the terminology associated with it. I think I need to first, understand what the definition of "toning" is in that book.

Copper silver nickle are transition metals, meaning it has electrons in more than one shell which is means it is common for different forms of oxidation to occur. Why do they say hydrogen sulfide is the culprit?

For example, pennies... I am going to ignore that they are actually a copper alloy for sake of this argument. Anyways. the first reagent that a penny (copper) is exposed to is the air we breathe, mostly nitrogen and about 20% oxygen. Cu + O2 = cupric oxide - that green stuff on the statue of liberty. thats the short version. there is a lot that goes on (other chemical reactions) to get that point.

My point is that air and water react with coins first and that changes the color (toning?) instantaneously. While we can't see it initially, the amount of exposure to air and water will determine the rate at which it becomes visible to our eyes. I think that that, occurs long before a smelly cesspool leaches fumes into the house along with other human made contaminants. Does it not?

Anyways.... unless a coin is somehow cleaned of all oxidation and then instantaneously sealed in some type of inert gas, it is impossible to stop the reactions that occur naturally from all the crap in our atmosphere.

I am running at the mouth and it has been a long time since I studied all that stuff. SO I could be wrong. A lot of stuff I know about coins and protecting them was explained to me by my father. Chemistry was big thing in our house. He has a doctorate in Chemistry, worked R&D with DuPont for 30 years. He was a bit of mad scientist and like showing off. highlights were having him do demonstrations in our science classes .. I digress sorry.

Thad, where do I find the other products that you have?

 

Because H2S is a gas and it's everywhere and it's highly reactive. Not to say that other forms of sulfur such as sulfates, sulfites, etc. can't contribute, but they are less likely to make it to the surface of a coin unless it's exposed to liquid.

Coins are "toned" within seconds of being minted. A layer of cuprous oxide (Cu2O) is instantly formed and actually provides a layer of protection. The green stuff on the statue of liberty is actually not an oxide, but verdigris. It is copper chloride formed by the exposure to sea water.

Yes, oxidation occurs first, but trace levels of hydrogen sulfide are present in all air. The natural sources of H2S are many, I suggest you google it.

The oxidation layer is harmless, it provides protection and doesn't need to be "cleaned". As long as it doesn't get too thick and begin the conversion to curpic oxide (black) there's no problem.

COOL! I'm sure he's a lot smarter than I am. We have some PhD's in this forum that also a lot smarter than I am. I don't claim to know everything about coins and chemisty. I just do my best because the topic interests me greatly.

Just one other product, see my sig.

 

Agreed, I hurried through that process I use for whizzed coins and took that shot midway through. On polished coins, it is my opinion, that they have to be microscopically etched in order get a patina to adhere to the surface. So yes, the coin has been further damaged however it is my opinion that with the patina it now has it has been conserved. I'll post another pic this weekend after I am done "conserving" it. BTW I guessed AT on your initial pic.

Question on the coin in you avatar. I have several like that and I am at a total loss on why some toned like that when others didn't. It happened in a Dansco 100 album to couple random. I even have one in an Intercept round plastic holder that I noticed recently has went nuts during the last 5 years. So much for Intercept. ha!

BTW- Please take this as constructive criticism, which you seem to be encouraging.... I think that 6 weeks is too long to make it an attractive product for someone to use. While I trust your R&D to come up with a superior/safe method/product, just keep in mind that the better mousetrap, need to be exactly that in order for it to sell.

Another Question: I would think that in order for your product to produce consistent results that you have to have the coins at a consistent starting point. I understand proprietary info if you don't want to share now.... What is the prep sequence? dipping? Soap and water?

 

sure a fair question. most of the coins that i deal with have surface verdi i really dont buy coins with verdi on them and the surface is nickel, steel, quarternary alloy or copper nickel not copper and biox works wonders on those in 5 seconds

i would like to think my coins should not develop verdi as i spend a small fortune on preventive medication for the coins. but from the pics it looks good. i might give it a try when i place my next order at wizards maybe he can send me a small sample to test

 

these tests are all good. now take some of these toned coins and get them slabbed. then there wont be any doubts left.

 

hmmmmm My copper roof 100 miles from any salt water has turned green because. I know.... google!

and post it? lol

 

Hi Spock, mind if I jump in your car and go for a ride?

Here! _

It is curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want.

Who said that?


As far as grading services. I have 2 coins PCGS that came back as cleaned that I know for a fact they were never cleaned. They came from my fathers collection. I think they looked too perfect, not the least hint of red toning anywhere. So I think they didn't believe it was possible, I guess. Cartwheel luster and all. Go figure.

 

If this product takes off, one line that's probably not okay to cross is toning to cover up defects/damage/etc. I believe the pcgs lawsuit mentions that. So, depending on the decision in the case, a precedent may be set, whether or not a coin is slabbed. For that matter, there’s probably already precedent out there – it will be interesting to see if pcgs sites any. Of course, if the coin isn’t slabbed, it would probably be sufficient to disclose the “cover up” to the buyer.

 

I am not sure the goal is to make the coins slabable, just to make them more collectable. I mean even I have a few dozen cleaned wheaties that I would not give out free to kids. Maybe if they browned up they could be handed out as re-colored for them to study. Using this product is not going to put back the luster on a MS coin that was harshly cleaned or dipped.

 

i have a 1936s gem bu.. i say ms 65brwn + nice purple toning 100 % all natural

 

I agree too TC !
but the coin is the only thing that knows 4 sure. but I have not hear one talk yet.U????:devil: