Very Big Scam

Strange.... the seller needs 32-33 days to ship after payment clears. Anyway, that's what it says in his PayPal details. But... free shipping. Oh boy!

 

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If you had read what I said, eBay loses nothing if your "scammer" does not deliver. They will never release the funds until I receive the gold.

You can no more prove I am a scammer than you can prove I did not give them the picture to use. If you can prove who took the picture, I will also report it to eBay and it WILL be removed. BTW, a letter or memo from either seller is what is known as hearsay evidence unless it is sworn testimony in open court. And hearsay evidence in inadmissible. Don't believe me? Show me a law that says otherwise.

Also, accusing people of crimes is definitely against CT's policy. I would seriously suggest you refrain from personal attacks unless you can prove them and that includes learning what proof is.

 

Now, that will not work. My guess is that will be against eBay rules - although I do not know specifics.

 

So here's the deal as I see it: aldergold included photos of the numbered COA (has to be 58 or under) and the original box and a photo of the Temple of Heaven side (it's the obverse) to demonstrate his possession of this very rare coin. Mr. Cheetah has shown none of those, perhaps because the numbers would give away that he doesn't have the three coins he claims to have – or maybe because Mr. Rim's Cents forgot to send those to him. I have stated that in my opinion, based on a lot of experience with Panda coins and sellers, cheetah's a cheater. It was offered here for anyone who may have been tempted to spend a lot of money on what appeared to be a bargain but may not really be one. People can take that information and buy all three of his "coins" if they want, but at least they have some information on which to make a reasoned choice.

Seller alderwood can prove his ownership of the coin with a photo of the reeding on the side of the coin. The serial numbers for this series are stamped there. It needs to match the COA. That will eliminate anyone else's claim that they are the actual owner of this particular gold coin and that they granted permission to others to use it. Mr. Rim's Cents apparently hypothetical claim of possession would, I believe, be severely weakened if he couldn't provide photos of the matching serial numbers.

Anyway, the point of this discussion is to alert collectors to my concerns about what I'm fairly sure is a scam, not prosecute a criminal case or argue the legal code. I hope that's been accomplished.

Oh yes, I'm not in the least bit troubled by missing out on the $25,000 item. If I collected the Kilo gold Panda series – which I don't – I would buy Mr. Aldergold's and sleep well in the belief that he is a legitimate seller.

Best wishes and happy collecting to all,
Peter Anthony
www.pandacollector.com

 

Your photos prove nothing. I gave them both those photos of my panda. Until you can prove that wrong, do not worry about the photos.

Now to the serious part. I just got off the phone with eBay. They found no rule he violated, but were very worried about the 30 day shipping "after the payment clears" - particularly for such an expensive item. My guess is that if they get enough complaints about the shipping, they might take it down. Please forget about the photos. I have been down that road. eBay will do nothing about copying photos unless and until they copy YOUR photo and then only if YOU report it. I was not just spouting earlier. Those are both eBay's rules and the rules of evidence in ALL courts in the US.

 

Such a huge scam. Gold played kilo panda coins sell for $55 in stores.
That's what he will send, it's an obvious scam.
And as you know RLM it's not what you can prove but what you can convince the jury of. And were convinced it's a scam.
It's like OJ evidence points to gulty conviction was not guilty.

 

But you can only convince a jury with evidence. You cannot even admit the evidence you are talking about. You will not even be allowed to mention it. Hearsay evidence is inadmissible. Period.

BTW, there is no jury here, only eBay. And, if you get one of those "Gold played kilo panda coins", you get your money back. You lose nothing. Now eBay might lose something if they do nothing.

 

Ive had listings removed because I used a stock photo, they were football jerseys.

 

Since it does not enter this discussion, I did not mention that. Yes, using published, copyrighted picture will get your listing pulled. BTW, every published picture is copyrighted, but you still have to know who owns the copyright.

 

I think what PandaCollector is trying to say is that 10cheeta whatever stole the photo from aldergold. Which means that either he doesn't have the coin or he sucks at photography

 

I know well what he is trying to say. Apparently you do not know what I am saying. He needs proof. Not hearsay. Proof. And he has NONE. NADA. RIEN.

:dead-horse:"Which means that either he doesn't have the coin or he sucks at photography" - or he is lazy or aldergold stole it from 10cheeta or they both stole it from some where else, or......., or......., or......... What that really is is proof that you do not know what happened.:dead-horse:

In stead of chasing windmills, why not go after something that you might win. Anyone with any sense at eBay will not let this proceed with a 30 after after payment clears delivery. That is just too much risk for any normal businessman when they have to pay the loses.

 

rlm, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone. Actually, I haven't even read most of the responses to be truthful

I just thought maybe someone was confused about what pandacollector was trying to make a point of.

 

Mr. Rim's Cents,

This is quite amusing. You have just stated the coin is your Panda. You also stated you gave them both the photos. So, 1) please describe where on the rim of your coin the serial number is located relative to the rest of the design - 1 o'clock to 12 o'clock when the Temple is vertical will do, and 2) one of the photos you gave Mr. aldergold is of the COA that only comes with one of the 58 coins of this type. Pray tell, what is the name of the Chinese official who signed that COA? Hint: it's written in English. Unfortunately Mr. aldergold forgot to show that detail, but since you provided the photos of your coin all you have to do is look at your COA to find the answer.

Please don't continue to tell me about your photos without answering those two questions first. As far as eBay taking action against this seller (or other bad apples) is concerned, in most cases they don't and buyers are left to fend for themselves. If they are lucky to discover that they've been duped within 60 days PayPal may help — otherwise they have no practical legal recourse that I've heard of to recover their lost money.

That's why it's necessary to make collectors aware of problem sellers and problem items. It's hard for the buyer to beware when he/she doesn't know what to beware of. Like I said before, the point of this thread was to warn people about what looks like a scam to me. This isn't a court, it's a collector's forum. Whether anyone could be convicted in court based on this discussion is totally besides the point. And by the way, I've accused no one of anything, only stated my opinions.

You obviously know a great deal about the law but less about Panda coins. If I needed legal help I would consider your services. If I'm Panda shopping it's less likely you will hear from me.

Best wishes to everyone who read or contributed to this discussion,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

 

I seem to be about the only one arguing with him and I really understand his point. At best, you might be able to stretch and call his evidence hearsay. Even that is not prove anything if it were stretched that far. The heck of it is that I really think he is correct, but he has no evidence of it with the possible exception of the seller needs 32-33 days to ship after payment clears.

 

Perhaps that explains why eBay takes so little action against sellers who are selling fake or altered coins. But where does this leave most buyers? Up the creek, pretty much. Since the law (and eBay) isn't flexible enough to protect buyers I think it's useful to have exchanges of information like this. Didn't someone once say something about sunlight being the best disinfectant? Thanks for the animated discussion.

By the way, I just came across this item http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110572201700&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123 on eBay. The photo on the left from item 110572201700 is of a counterfeit coin. The photo on the right is of a genuine Panda. Note the different details in the Temple and the shape of the date.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com/

 

I emailed the seller asking him for the coin numbers. Answer: #17 #34 #43
Hmmmmm.....

 

The seller should post photos of the serial numbers stamped on the coins along with the matching COAs.
Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com/

 

I wasn't going to weigh in on this, but being a full time eBay seller, I feel like I ought to.

As far as rlm's points about evidence, there is definitely some circumstancial evidence there pointing towards a scam-
1. He has "sold" 2 of these already for $25,000, well below what they are worth. Not a big deal. But interesting.
2. He now has 3 of them listed as a Buy It Now with a price of $65,000. I honestly do not see how it would be possible for one person to own 5 coins of a 58 mintage. And, if he did, I very seriously doubt he would be selling them on eBay.
3. In one listing he did not have a pic due to his "camera being broken". In sellers' circles on eBay, this is highly suspicious.
4. The pics he does use are very much stolen from another user (this can be proven). In the world of eBay, pics are generally seen as proof of ownership (especially when trying to sell high dollar items).
5. Look at his history. He has never sold on eBay. He has bought only 7 items- basketball cards and Twilight related items. These do not sound like the things a person that owns a very rare gold coin (much less 5 of them) would be purchasing.
6. He has only been an eBay member for two months. Not a big deal. But again, very suspicious.
7. Shipping is with a Flat Rate Envelope with no insurance. There is no way someone that owns 5 of these coins would ship them without insurance. (On eBay, shipping insurance must be offered up front. It can't be added later.)
8. The listings only run for 3 days. Why would he not list them for longer? Is he trying to sell as many as he can within that 32-33 day window of shipping time from the time the first one ended?


Now, is that any proof of guilt? Not even slightly. But, anyone that does purchase one of those needs to come talk to me. I have some oceanfront property in Nebraska I want to sell them.

 

1. Guess what? He did not sell 2 of them. Got that straight from eBay.
2. Interesting circumstances, but what does it prove.
3. Interesting circumstances, but what does it prove. However, no picture is against eBay rules.
4. Can be proven, yes, but only by/with the original owner. No one here can prove it without subpoenaing the original owner in court.
5. Makes me leery, but so what. Every newcomer has to start somehow.
6. Makes me leery, but so what. Every newcomer has to start somehow.
7. WRONG. He does not say "no insurance", insurance needn't be offered (mentioned either way) on eBay, insurance can be added later (just not charged for). And eBay REQUIRES insurance for items over $250. I think this fit. BTW, it should be shipped priority mail registered.
8. Interesting circumstances, but what does it prove.

Now, I absolutely agree with your conclusion.