Yes, Doug, I understand what you are saying happened in that area. I have no idea how much plainer I can state it. That is not a rub, not a scratch, not an abrasion, and not any other synonym you chose to put there. It is not post mint. PERIOD. I have ZERO doubt as to that fact. It just is not post mint shiny. Additionally, it is "counting machine damage, or rolling machine damage"
C'mon Doug, no need to get so up tight about it. I know I'm not an expert like any of you but really, a couple people think it's not PMD, let's move on.
I agree with RLM's on this,, the area Doug has highlighted by the rim most certainly is not a scrape or other post mint impartment... lord,, how the heck was a scrap imparted in this area without manifesting on the high points around it. As to the other thread regarding metal flow, Doug has a strong argument.. stronger than most are giving him credit for imo. I'll leave it there. In either case, post mint rubs or planchet flaws, imo the same grade deductions, or very nearly the same grade deductions should be alloted.... a flawed planchet should not be given a 70 grade, therefore if you agree with that, some deduction should be given... now if an otherwise perfect coin with a .01mm scratch equates to a ms69, then what does an otherwise perfect coin with a .01mm planchet flow equate to ? same same imo..... burp.
I am reasonably sure that is not a planchet flaw either. I am pretty sure that is a die problem. However, in this case I am not absolutely positive as I am that it is not PMD.
Do you not understand that if nobody ever disputes this stuff, that if nobody ever tries to get others to see what is going on with the TPGs that it will only get worse ? Just like it has over the last several years. I'm sorry, but I believe in what I write here. I believe with all my heart that we have very serious problems in the grading industry today and that thos eproblems must be rectified. So when I disagree with something - no, I won't just let it go. I will present my opinions, I will present what I know to be facts, and I will hope that some few out there read it and take notice. And perhaps, just perhaps, changes will occur.
I have to agree with Doug here. These discussions are important to the hobby and one of the reasons this forum exists. That said, there's no way we'll ever get the TPG's to change....but at least we can get better at buying the coin and not the slab.
Ditto on all three points. That being said, it just doesn't work on this coin. The 2010 is a different story.
Why not ? They were not always this way, they had to change to get this way. They have changed before and they will change again. And lets' not forget about perhaps even a more important change - the one that took place when MS65s became MS63s, and MS70s became MS65s. And this change occured overnight - literally overnight. So don't ever think that the TPGs won't change. And the changes that happen - they happen because of people like us.
Who's reaching? Rolling machine damage doesn't look like this, and it's more around the entire coin, and looks quite different (circular -vs- radial). Tell me how something can scratch towards the center of the coin (radially) from a rolling machine, yet leave the rim and lettering unscathed -- and without showing any other damage anywhere on the coin from the rolling machine. That's die crumbling. If it was rolling machine damage, the rim would be damaged, and the marks would be circular, not radial. I'm not the biggest fan of TPGs either, but there's no reason to use this coin as part of that argument. Respectfully...Mike
The damaged caused by counting machines is always in straight lines and can appear anywhere on the coin. And before any coin goes into a rolling machine it goes through a counting machine first.
I'm not familiar with the mechanics of a coin counting machine, but I am still having a tough time imagining anything that could damage the fields between the lettering and rim without damaging either the lettering or the rims. Perhaps you can post another example of a coin damaged by a coin counting machine that exhibits these characteristics.
Go search the error forum if you want. You'll find several that have similar characteristics. And no Mike, I don't know for certain that it was done by a counting machine. But I know I have never seen an MS coin, out of the hundreds of thousands that I have looked at, with similar marks either. I'm satisfied that is damage and nothing but damage.
And I am 1000% convinced that there is nothing post mint in the area you circled. Nada. Zip. Zilch. And I have the coin in hand.:dead-horse: