Can Mint Employee's Buy Coins Hot off the line?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Fifty, Jul 28, 2010.

  1. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Well, regardless of what the old laws stated, I am talking about what the current US Code states. And it says quite plainly that people can still, today, bring in gold and or silver to the US Mint and have it turned into gold/silver bars and or coins/money. See the following -

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/search/display.html?terms=deposit and bullion&url=/uscode/html/uscode31/usc_sec_31_00005121----000-.html

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/search/display.html?terms=deposit and bullion&url=/uscode/html/uscode31/usc_sec_31_00005122----000-.html

    edit - Those are the urls alright - let's try this

    Section 5121

    Section 5122
     
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  3. slamster17

    slamster17 Junior Member

    Links aren't working for me GD, but you're saying that I could walk into the Philadelphia mint with 1 ounce of gold, or 1 ounce of silver, and walk out with an ASE?
     
  4. Ltrain

    Ltrain New Member

    Hmm, I should open a junk silver store, buying at 85% of spot if that's the case... Drive to philly, hand them everything, take equivalent amount of ASE's, sell for 10% over spot... nice margins!
     
  5. slamster17

    slamster17 Junior Member

    Seriously, or just step up on the roll searching!
     
  6. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Hmmmm - even editing the links didn't work so I'll copy/paste I guess. But to answer your question - yes. But you have to go through the entire process, you don't just walk in and then walk out. It's explained in the code -

    TITLE 31 > SUBTITLE IV > CHAPTER 51 > SUBCHAPTER II > § 5121

    § 5121. Refining, assaying, and valuation of bullion

    (a) The Secretary of the Treasury shall—
    (1) melt and refine bullion;
    (2) as required, assay coins, metal, and bullion;
    (3) cast gold and silver bullion deposits into bars; and
    (4) cast alloys into bars for minting coins.
    (b) A person owning gold or silver bullion may deposit the bullion with the Secretary to be cast into fine, standard fineness, or unrefined bars weighing at least 5 troy ounces. When practicable, the Secretary shall weigh the bullion in front of the depositor. The Secretary shall give the depositor a receipt for the bullion stating the description and weight of the bullion. When the Secretary has to melt the bullion or remove base metals before the value of the bullion can be determined, the weight is the weight after the melting or removal of the metals. The Secretary may refuse a deposit of gold bullion if the deposit is less than $100 in value or the bullion is so base that it is unsuitable for the operations of the Bureau of the Mint.
    (c) When the gold and silver are combined in bullion that is deposited and either the gold or silver is so little that it cannot be separated economically, the Secretary may not pay the depositor for the gold or silver that cannot be separated.
    (d)
    (1) Under conditions prescribed by the Secretary, a person may exchange unrefined bullion for fine bars when—
    (A) gold and silver are combined in the bullion in proportions that cannot be economically refined; or
    (B) necessary supplies of acids cannot be procured at reasonable rates.
    (2) The charge for refining in an exchange under this subsection may be not more than the charge imposed in an exchange of unrefined bullion for refined bullion.
    (e) The Secretary shall prepare bars for payment of deposits. The Secretary shall stamp each bar with a designation of the weight and fineness of the bar and a symbol the Secretary considers suitable to prevent fraudulent imitation of the bar.


    TITLE 31 > SUBTITLE IV > CHAPTER 51 > SUBCHAPTER II > § 5122

    § 5122. Payment to depositors

    (a) The Secretary of the Treasury shall determine the fineness, weight, and value of each deposit and bar under section 5121 of this title. The value and the amount of charges under subsection (b) of this section shall be based on the fineness and weight of the bullion. The Secretary shall give the depositor a statement of the charges and the net amount of the deposit to be paid in money or bars of the same species of bullion as that deposited.
    (b) The Secretary shall impose a charge equal to the average cost of material, labor, waste, and use of machinery of a United States mint or assay office for—
    (1) melting and refining bullion;
    (2) using copper as an alloy when bullion deposited is above standard;
    (3) separating gold and silver combined in the bullion; and
    (4) preparing bars.
    (c) The Secretary shall pay to the depositor or to a person designated by the depositor money or bars equivalent to the bullion deposited as soon as practicable after the value of the deposit is determined. If demanded, the Secretary shall pay depositors in the order in which the bullion is deposited with the Secretary. However, when there is an unavoidable delay in determining the value of a deposit, the Secretary shall pay subsequent depositors. When practicable and convenient, the Secretary shall pay depositors in the denominations requested by the depositor. After the depositor is paid, the bullion is the property of the United States Government.
    (d) To allow the Secretary to pay depositors with as little delay as possible, the Secretary shall keep in the mints and assay offices, when possible, money and bullion the Secretary decides are convenient and necessary.


    And when somebody asks if this is current -

    Title 31 of the US Code as currently published by the US Government reflects the laws passed by Congress as of Jan. 5, 2009, and it is this version that is published here.
     
  7. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    Yes they are current, but say nothing about having your bullion struck into coins. Section 5121 cover converting your bullion into bars for you, refining or parting if needed. Section 5122 covers paying you for your bullion if you are selling it to the government. Any fees and costs and then paying you for it. It says you can choose what denominations you want to be paid in, it does not say they will be silver or gold. In other words bring in $1000 worth of silver an ask to be paid in quarters and you will get $1000 worth of quarters.....coppernickel clad quarters. It says he can pay you in bars or money. Clad quarters are money.
     
  8. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Sure they do, read a little closer -

    The Secretary shall give the depositor a statement of the charges and the net amount of the deposit to be paid in money or bars of the same species of bullion as that deposited.
     
  9. slamster17

    slamster17 Junior Member

  10. statequarterguy

    statequarterguy Love Pucks

    Question is, at whose discretion, the depositor's or the Secretary's?
     
  11. Coinman1981

    Coinman1981 Junior Member

    Can you imagine how many 1964-D Peace dollars we WILL see should the government ever legalize their existence? Mark my word, we'll see at least 10 pop up.
     
  12. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    The depositor's.
     
  13. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    I read it as they will pay in money or they will pay in bars of the same metal as the bullion deposited.

    And I bet if you tried depositing bulion with them they would read it that way as well. I will agree though that the wording is a bit ambiguous. It needs a comma either after the word money, or after the word bars to make the meaning clearer.

    I would also think the "When practical and convenient" clause would also give them a way out by simply stating that paying in silver or gold coin, or bars or even cash is not "practical or convenient". Here's a check.
     
  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    And I'd bet that they would have a hard time getting away with that since they mint both the gold and silver coins by the millions ! Pretty hard to say it's not convenient when they mint that many.

    Anybody who ever took it court - they would win. Not the mint !
     
  15. Yokozuna

    Yokozuna No Fear Of Change

    How cool! When I move to Forked River, NJ, I'll be about an hour and a half (60 miles) from the mint. I'll have to try this and see what happens. I think I read that the minimum is $100. Is this correct? I'll go to my coin dealer and get the correct amount $100 or $? in culls. He's one of the best and most honest dealers I've ever met. He always cuts me a deal without asking, so I'm sure he'll give me the coins as close to melt prices as he can and still turn a profit. I may have to hit him once or twice as I may empty his silver coins "by the ounce" box.

    I don't want to advertise for the dealer, but if you live in the Dallas area, PM me and I'll let you know who he is. :)

    I can't wait! Thanks for all of the info in this thread!

    Ben
     
  16. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    Clear and specific language never stopped a Federal Judge from ignoring the statute when it was inconvenient.
     
  17. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Maybe, maybe not. My claim was the law is on the books and it is.
     
  18. 19Lyds

    19Lyds Member of the United States of Confusion

    I think that anybody who attempted to do this would run into problems due to:

    "When practicable and convenient, the Secretary shall pay depositors in the denominations requested by the depositor."

    I seriously doubt that the Secretary of the Treasury or his office staff is setup to handle such requests so it certainly would not be "practicable" nor "convenient".
     
  19. statequarterguy

    statequarterguy Love Pucks

    I'll 2nd that! The mint doesn't even SELL the unc bullion coins to the public because it's not convenient.
     
  20. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Hardly so. Every law there is about coins says the same thing - the Secretary shall this or shall that. That doesn't mean the SecTreas actually does anything at all. He's merely responsible for it because the SecTreas is in charge of the US MInt. The US Mint and its employees does it all ! Not the Secretary of the Treasury.

    As I said, the law is on the books. They have no choice but to comply.
     
  21. statequarterguy

    statequarterguy Love Pucks

    Okay, we need to test this theory/law. Anyone live by a mint facility that's willing to take some bullion in?
     
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