1805 h1c - die state etc ?

Hey guys,

We often throw down some photos for grading and / or attribution. This time, I thought I would introduce a new wrinkle. On this one, I would like to hear your opinions about everything about this coin except "good honest wear".

In particular, I'm talkin' bout the difference between post-mint issues and "as made" issues. "As made" includes die state and it's impact on the coin's appearance, the original flan's quality (including color), strike, centering, and so forth. Post-mint includes wear of course, but also any bangs, nicks, environmental exposure, and any human intentional manipulation.

A recent thread about an 1814 Classic 1c led me to focus on these issues; that coin had G4 details but was in a PCGS VG8 slab. It's interesting to ponder the mind of the Early American Copper coin man, who often must weigh factors other than "good honest wear"; in fact "the other factors" often greatly outweigh wear.

I felt this coin is a good example of "other factors".

Of course, your "bottom line" grade opinion is always welcome, along with any and all comments.

 

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I lost my post.

It looks like three or 4 small dings in the field and 1 on the chin for Post Mint Damage. They would have to be very small considering the size of the coin. The most noticeable is on the chin. The planchet is a little rough which is typical for the time and I don't think the roughness is corrosion related. The reverse has some crumbling of the rims in the denticals from 3 to 5 O'clock. Examination of the edges should confirm the die issue verses edge bumps. Detail in the blouse and leaves indicate a strong strike and only barely off center towards the left where the denticles disappear or alternatively a small planchet. Color my be a little dark, but well within normal variation.

I'm thinking about XF/AU50 depending on what you call a 50 and wouldn't be surprised if a TPG found a way to stretch it a couple of grades higher. Now if you think it's actually a weak strike, you could even get it to the MS range, but I think that's a stretch.

That's my opinion and I put more faith in non grading observations than grading opinions.

 

I would say XF45, just slightly too much wear for AU. Not sure what a tpg would do. And I will not touch die state since I really do not know that much about half cents. I do know this one looks pretty nice. The only thing that concerns me is the planchet looks slightly porous - not really enough(in my opinion) to hurt the grade of the coin. Nice coin.

 

EF-45 sounds right to me. Nice coin.

 

Dang... I just noticed my heading says "draped bust cent", but it's a half cent. Oh well ! Fixed it on the local copy.

 

I've been looking at Heritage for die states and yours is a middle to late die state. I am also noticing that the MS62 grade is often seen with what appears to be wear in the hair so it could be a simple weakness in the design rather than wear.

 

Here's a post mint issue: I would wager the coin has been recolored.

 

You'd have to show me why you would think that. I can't see it.

 

Got some reverse cuds 'twixt K3 and K6. I always think those are cool, though I also have a conflicting interest - the sharpness of early die state strikes.

 

Those are what I called rim crumbling. It's semantics. I usually wait for the break to intrude into the field away from the denticals/dentils to call it a CUD. But it's my own +definition and not necessarily universally accepted.

 

I have a feeling I'm gonna come back from Boston ANA with a heckuva lot of half cents. I just think they're cool.

I'm a Half Wit !

 

And maybe a little something for me as well. Have fun.

 

The color is all wrong. The fields (particularly the reverse) show evidence of corrosion, yet none is visible on the coin.

Said a bit differently, if you can't look in your lincoln cent collection and see a color of a large cent or half cent, you should be very suspicious -- and such is the case with the coin pictured here. You just don't see lincoln cents (pre-83) with this coloration.

I will also wager the coin was recolored with deller's darkener -- it gives formerly corroded coins just this coloration. Don't believe me? That's fine...just try it yourself (like I did) and report back what you find.

All that said, there's nothing necessarily wrong with recolored copper -- to the contrary, I own and love several recolored pieces -- but it is what it is.

Take care...Mike

 

p.s. so you know, I've been collecting copper (on and off) in excess of 30 years. Not that it makes me smarter than anyone else, but it does speak to my experience with these coins.

 

p.p.s. the above notwithstanding, I find the coin very attractive and desirable.

 

That's the key - it is what it is.

Early Copper "got issues". Truly pristine pieces are true "conditional rarities" and thus hard to find and spendy.

The key is to simply know what we're looking at and decide accordingly. That's been the thrust of several threads I've started lately... there was something about the coin I found instructive so I posted up.

 

I agree it's possible the coin has been recolored. One thing is certain... coins like this have been through a lot in 200 years.

The comparison with Lincoln cents is interesting. I think it's worthy... up to a point. But perhaps the analogy has a breaking point.

Compared to Early American Copper, Lincolns - even "all the way back there" in 1909 - were made from vastly superior flans. EAC coins were often made from scrap metal. Often the flans were bought from British sources and sat around in kegs in humid, salty harbors awaiting delivery.

It's possible that primitive minting and inferior metallurgy leaves EACs with a different, broader color spectrum than one finds with Lincolns.

Thoughts ?

 

Thank you for the explanation. It's an area (of many) in which I need more education.

 

I'd love to see Sheldon's color set posted on the net. The variation in old copper color is always surprising. Like the 1799, I've heard most of them described as steel gray rather than the usual brown tone because of a different source of Copper for that limited time of strike.

 

That's a very good point, in general. However, not for the the coin in question, IMO.

That said, if you look through a whole bunch of circulated Lincoln's you will find virtually all of the shades you will find in earlier coins. Not all, but most.