Artificially Toned Coins on Ebay

Is that what this is about Paul? I have never even let that cross my mind? So if I make a thread worshiping you will you please stop following me around and trying to wager bets with me please?

Jeeze O peets this guys full of himself.

 

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My dealer here locally is around 80 years old and sells them to me all the time for cheap. usually bullion price...... Why? because he is tired of getting cleaner on his fingers.

 

Yup, same here. I would pay about $80 for rainbow toned XF/AU SL halves, same coin "dipped" white would be $100 at least. Bust halves toned XF/AU were $80-100, white ones sometimes pushed $140-150. I was the "garbage" man buying "nasty" toned coins that no one wanted. I even had a dealer I was going to buy a coin from deliver it to me white. I asked him what happened, he told me he "fixed" it for me, and was shocked when I told him I was no longer interested in it!

Mine were purchased about 15-20 years ago though. The popularity of toning has surprised me. I imagine its a cycle that will revert some day though, like all cycles.

 

Wait, who is the one who is full of himself? I certainly do not follow you around. The wager you are referring to was in a thread that I posted the first reply to the OP's question. Then in you came and stated that my opinion is careless/reckless. If you are going to make and accusation of that nature, it is only natural that I would want to make you pay when I prove you wrong. My opinons are based on experience in the form years of purchasing toned coins. In this thread, I made a comment about the photos of a seller who I have personal experience with and know for a fact juices his photos. It was a very innocent comment that you rudely followed up with your guru comment. You also never answered my questions. Do you disagree that the photo is juiced? Have you ever purchased a coin from John? I don't know what your problem is with me, but you need to let it go.

 

two words


Carbon Spots

 

Quick newbie question: Are all AT coins considered damaged?

 

I think I really started something with this AT stuff.
I do like the story about the dealer "cleaning up" the coin.

 

If he is artificially toning coins and/or knowingly offering artificially toned coins, while claiming otherwise, he is, indeed, doing something wrong.

Edited to add: Under Ebay's policy for selling stamps and coins:

"Include all information about any alterations that may have been made to the item."

 

Nahhh, same AT/NT , MA/MU stuff at least once a week or more

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this is the point I was trying to make:

Under Ebay's policy for selling stamps and coins:

"Include all information about any alterations that may have been made to the item."

 

First off, he is not "claiming otherwise" despite the OP's claim. Now if you are saying selling AT coins is "wrong", morally, you may be right. So you are saying AT is an "alteration"? Then why isn't NT an "alteration"? Carbon spots? Normal wear? How do you draw the line? I really do not think that is the definition eBay meant and enforcing it as such would be totally impossible.

 

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Good point Mark, and I agree with the ethics supporting such. What I can't pin down is ( in light of the PCGS action) if "toning" is considered an alteration. Reading through the complaints and such on another forum (CU), it seems that the "alteration" is deemed to be physical or intending to be fraudulent ( increase the value). If toning is an alteration, both types, NT and AT, should have to be duly reported in the Ebay ad I would think.

Jim

Yeah, RLM beat me to it slow typing .
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Even using your logic, it's one thing for a seller not to mention alterations (even NT) he did not see occur before he acquired the coin. It's anotherr, entirely, if he knew about them, from having done them himself, after he acquired them.

 

And that is just the beginning. Even if you could by their rule separate AT from NT, we have been arguing for years (literally) just what constitutes AT versus NT and still have not agreed. Now you want someone to do it via a picture - and not even necessarily a good one.

 

And sadly it is almost completely impossible to prove that unless you have reliable, dated before and after photos, and even then there is an argument (still unresolved) , as to exactly what is AT toning vs NT toning, as intent is the most mentioned, and that is very hard to prove.

Ok, I am going to stop posting before someone thinks RLM and I are the same person on 2 IDs

 

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Nope, I have always said ( no offense to members) that no one can tell AT from NT 100%. I sincerely think that if it an excellent AT job it is 0%. Some AT is so bad, it shouldn't even count in the consideration. But if someone can get it slabbed, it is market acceptable ( even if AT), and if not, it is market unacceptable ( even if really NT). If you like it, buy it. If not, then don't. If you want it to be MA, then buy PCGS,NGC slabs. Trusted dealers are fine, but you are trusting their ability level and not their ethics.

Jim

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My logic is that none of the toning is alterations. Period. Therefore there is no problem. Besides, giving a complete description of everything that has ever happened to the coin is ridiculous and impossible. As a for-instance, there is a 1799 cent posted here recently. I believe it to be a ground find. Can you prove to me that coin was or was not ever toned be it AT or NT?

As for your second line, there is no way either you or especially eBay could ever prove that the seller did anything to the coins after he acquired them. Even if you saw him buy a white coin and then sell the same coin colored (have fun proving that to begin with), you would still have to prove that he did not sell it again and rebuy it. Even if you could prove that, you need something that is practical to prove and can be enforced. What I have just described is totally impractical.