My Beef with Grading Companys....

I'm not a lawyer, but shouldn't you try to negotiate a settlement with PCGS, first? How long ago was the auction?

Even if it came down to filing suit, I think you would, at best, probably only get a partial award because any smart lawyer would claim contributory negligence on your part for not inspecting the coin thoroughly, that is, requesting a photo of the reverse before placing your bid.

Just my 2c worth!

Chris

 

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PCGS would say it was a mechanical error (typo, should have said no motto). They are not responsible for mechanical errors. As to who is responsible

You had the coin in hand, but you never looked at the reverse where the feature was that made it worth so much money, AND which would have let you know that an error had been made. Let's see who made the mistake that caused you to make a bad buy? Sure you said you were busy and we all know how long it takes to turn a coin over. If you HAD turned it over, would you have been too busy to send the coin back?

 

I am not a lawyer either, so take what I say as such.

You probably agreed to some kind of hold harmless agreement when you participated in the auction. You may not remember it, but I bet it was there. That kinds of lets off the auction house and, very possibly, the original seller.

That leaves PCGS. Here is their guarantee;

Now, your problem is that (assuming that you are 100% correct in all of your attribution and grading) correctly attributed and graded, you coin is worth MORE than the labeled attribution and grade. i.e. MS-65 "NO MOTTO" ($2500) is worth more than MS-61 "MOTTO" (~$2000). As I read their guarantee, your options are to sell the coin to them at "current market value" or them to pay you "difference between the current market value for the coin in question at the newly established grade and the current market value of the coin in question at the grade originally assigned" - or NOTHING. FWIW, the price I used are from their web site. I am reasonable sure those are not the exact prices PCGS uses, but should have the same relativity.

 

Rim, you missed the next line of the "guarantee"

This guarantee shall not apply to any coin as to which an obvious clerical error has been made with respect to the description of the coin.

I would think they would say it would be obvious that this coin labeled "Motto" does not have the motto on it.

 

Aside from the motto issue, from those pics, I don't see how you could call it a 65, looks like a 61 or 62 to me, unless all those hits are on the case, which they don't appear to be.

 

oh you did it foe me. my own angel GD

i got 3 out of 8 so ur saying i am the best even like this. wow i must have got really good.

i have one question i know you would rather have the one 67 then the 1000 66 because it is scarcer from your example, but why would you personally want to do it that way?

( i am like that also for those who need to know but here i am trying to understand uncle)

 

Recent MS65 St. Gaudens Grading Standard

It appears that you probably have limited familiarity with this coin type (pre-1934 St. Gaudens $20 Double Eagle), especially in the MS grades. I have inspected numerous "higher Grade" coins of this type, and have yet to see a coin of this type without rim nicks, nicked rays, field chatter, gouges, scratches, bag rub, copper spots, etc., which generally don't exist on the mislabeled coin (having a 1908 MOTTO number, eliminating "typo" error). I've attached the finest MS65 1908 MOTTO "early graded" specimen that I was able to view/acquire, the original coin graded to a seemingly perfect standard (A.N.A. original technical?), and a normal PCGS MS65 graded coin, meeting a newer standard allowable rim nicks, field chatter, gouges, scratches, copper spots, etc.. I trust this will instill edification, possibly understanding of "top tier" TPG grading standards. Many have viewed the "modern" St. Gaudens design coins, and have unrealistically come to expect the same coin condition in Century old coins, so I can understand your expectations. If you can supply that labeled date/type coin in the mislabeled coin condition, for MS61 pricing, I would purchase all that you can supply certified GENUINE.

 

I've seen more than a few pcgs ms pre 34's, but you may be correct, hard to tell from pics. Let us know what it re-certifies as.

 

imrich – I am not sure how to address your post as the details of the situation are somewhat sketchy. First it should be known as my screen name states – I am justafarmer – not a lawyer but it is a well known fact around my parts that farmers are jacks of all trades but master of none.

The first issue I’ll address is the misunderstanding below you wrote in your original post.

“I believe you've insinuated that you're of the opinion that a "top tier" TPG should be the ultimate authority for determining "value" of a coin.”

Although a correlation exists between grade and value, In my posts, I was only addressing the issue of grade and the expressed warranty a dealer creates as to condition when making a representation of the grade of a coin.

Question 1 - what are your damages? How much did you pay for the coin – how much can you sell the coin for now – “as-is” – how much would a person have reasonably expect to pay for a like-kind coin at the time of your purchase. And etc.

Question 2 – who represented the coin graded MS-65? – did they have a stake or were they enriched from the sale of the coin in question. And etc.

 

You state you are just a farmer, but then keep on hanging on "expressed warranty" the dealer makes when he puts his opinion of grade on a coin. An expressed warranty is by definition a written statement as to what is being warranted and how that will be measured. Writing VF or BU on a 2x2 does not guarantee another grader would grade the coin the same, nor does it state under which grading criteria it will be measured. If you want an expressed warranty, get one. Get a contract that has the dealer guarantee PCGS will grade this coin at least MS60. THEN you will have an expressed warranty.

Maybe you were shooting for implied warranty. You have a stronger case there, but the missing element is as to who is the final arbitor of the grade, and against which grading standard. You think it is assumed ANA standards, and I think you assume a TPG would be the arbitor. You can think that when you purchase, but I am not sure a court would agree. When presented with the myriad of different grading standards, and shown the differences in grades of the TPG'ers. If these points are important to you, then either discuss this with the dealer before your purchase or get the expressed warranty stating these facts.

Don't worry about being "just a farmer". I work for a large Ag Coop, so I know how busy and hard working farmers are.

 

Great, it just happened again! I submitted 17 error coins to NGC a little over a month ago. The site says "scheduled to be graded" still. I called and was told that the error grader took yet another vacation! Just about every time I submit errors I am told this bs. They must have 1 error grader and he takes 5 vacations a year. I never receive my coins back from ngc in a timely matter any more. They seriously need to update their estimated wait from 25 days to 50 days.
If you dare to submit error coins to ngc, do not send more than 5 if you want them back in a reAsonable time.

 

Your "beef" with NGC has transformed into an entire herd of cattle. If you don't like the service, then stop sending them your coins and giving them your money. If a better alternative exists, then find it. A complaint without a suggestion for improvement is of little use. The NGC error grader doesn't schedule his life around the ebb and flow of coin submissions, not to mention when he/she is there, they are probably working Saturdays and some Sundays (based on what I have heard from other posters and on the NGC forums).

 

I get the feeling that if someone gave you a gift of one million dollars, you'd complain because you had to pay taxes on it.

Chris

 

Well the cointalk forum readers (trolls excluded) might want to know how slow the process of NGC error grading is. I cant help it if I get a little frustrated when the wait is double the estimated time, they cant find my coins, they make mistakes on labels etc..
As long as I am still a member and paid my dues for the year, it is still beneficial for me to use ngc's services.

 

It just happens that there was a thread posted by Jason (physics-fan3.14) on the NGC forums about the lengthy turnaround times, and Scott Schechter, VP of Sales & Marketing, responded. His comments are posted below.

Naturally, one would think that the execs of all of the grading services would routinely read all of the complaints on all of the other coin forums just to make sure that they are covering all of the bases, but I guess they missed yours.

Have trolls really been a problem for you? They have never bothered me!

Chris

 

I've never had a problem with trolls. But, I live a good mile from the nearest bridge.

 

We have hundreds of bridges in the city where I live, but we don't have any trolls.......just snook, redfish, snapper and such.

Chris

 

I know PCGS sends out error coins to an outside consultant for authenticating and error identification (I don't know if he grades them as well) But the consultant has a full time plus job of his own. I would imagine that greatly slows down error grading. I would imagine NGC probably does something similar.

 

That's because they are all up in Alaska fishing for salmon:
http://www.great-alaska-seafood.com/seafood-sale-091611.htm