My Beef with Grading Companys....

If you can't tell the difference between MS63 and MS65 then I guess it would seem silly. For those of us who plainly recognize the difference, the increased seems perfectly logical.




Can you see it!

 

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ok humor me GD,

look at the coins posted above. from a value perspective should the actual value of the coin change if the 63 coin was in a 65 holder and vice versa. or if a pcgs gave it a different grade. we all know what would happen if the buyer was educated but all buyers are not and even a whole bunch of dealers couldnt grade it if their life depended on it so is the premium justifed for a one grade point difference or 2? and is there a sweet spot.

i guess a lot of it is grey and there is a fine line between hobby and investment these days. just to pay the devis advocate what would happen if 10 of the morgans were indeed more valuable than one 65. would one hold on to the 10 then? is it just a preference? can there ever be a 100% right answer?

 

I have never understood using the coins as an investment vehicle. The market is so underfunded and violatile, wholly dependent on demand which can vary greatly from time to time. There is no assurance that the price will even keep up with inflation over time and with all collectible items selling must be at the most opportune moment to show profit. Bullion seems better because of the ease of disposal. But again, timing is everything. Today, coin values (collectible) are down somewhat because of the economy, yet metals have soared. Realizing that collectible coins generally have bullion content, I believe someone who invested in 10 MS63 Morgans would do better investment wise than someone who purchased 1 MS65 for the same price. IMHO

 

The validity of huge price differences between small differences in grade is another phenomenon in the numismatic market that will be debated as long as the differences exist. Obviously some think the price difference is worth it, as they are willing to pay it. Some don't believe a huge difference is worth it, so would prefer ten 63's over one 65 for the same price. Even less understood by many collectors is the huge difference in price between grades that are practically indiscernible, like the difference between 69's and 70's or 68's and 69's.

 

Ive done a lot of buffalo nickel research on the differences you stated...it was alot of work, but worth it!
Some coins dont fluctuate much,,others do!
I was just checking the best proof fluctuations. 1957 proof set sells for 29-52. 1959 is 29-49.
1960 proof sets are good investments. You can grade the penny.quarter,and the half !!
Ive made a lot of money by knowing what a good price is!
whats the best, affordable Morgan with the highest price fluctuation in ms66 condition?
an ms66 buff nickel can sell for 39-70 bucks..not too bad for a low cost coin
you usually gotta spend money to make money though
theres many modern coins out there with fluctuations in the 100s of dollars!

 

so is a b c worth it then? and partial grading done correctly worth it? but then the question is done correctly.

 

OK. But if I could get 10 of the $373 coins for $920 as we were talking about earlier. I am off to the races ! Or Sports Book as it were.

I truly believe PCGS changed the dynamic somewhat once they started the registry. I mean the competition has to add to the phenomona, right ?

 

#1 - $373.75

#2 - $431.25

#3 - $920

#4 - $632.50

I'm assuming that these are all auction prices. The difficulty in determining the price of each depends just as much on timing as anything else. If they were all to come up in the same auction, the prices might be like those I selected. However, let's say that the auction for #4 came up a month before #3. Then, these prices might be reversed. At the same time, let's assume that #2 came up for auction a month before #3. Then #2 might have a higher price than #3.

I've seen this occur with some frequency. The first one to the "wire" gets the best price and the "also rans" get something a lilttle less.

Chris

 

durty coin no 3 - 920
coin no 4 - 600
coin 1 - 400
coin 2 - 300

 

oh i forgot to telly ou but your posts are improving due to the spock effect.

all hail the king

 

A Good Disparity Post

Thanks for "beating me to the punch", as I was about to do the same, showing grading incongruities by posting AU58 to MS65 "common date" St. Gaudens Double Eagles, as I've previously posted on this site. My action was precipitated by the statement " For those of us who plainly recognize the difference, the increased seems perfectly logical"., which I've proven ludicrous on numerous occasions, by a blind display at local coin shows, where dealers were asked to grade 6 coins (all graded by the same "preferred" TPG) from lowest to highest awarded grade. No "Dealer" was successful, and I would wager heavily with anyone who believes they can "correctly" grade these AU58 to MS65 coins, or even determine the proper graduation in 4 progressively graded coins, when using the top tier TPG as a standard. The disparity in grading of these "common date" Philadelphia mint coins, where the difference of one grade represented a retail profit/loss of >$2500 (which could easily purchase 100 MS63 dollars), depicted the foolishness of trusting a singular entity to establish "value". Another blind display of 6 identically graded St. Gaudens Double Eagles, certified by the top 5 CDN rated TPG and ACG, established the foolishness of acquiring coins by "label". No one correctly associated all of the coins with the TPG, and often the top CDN certifier was identified as having graded the ACG coin, and vise-versa. As you've correctly previously insinuated in this post, and knowledgeable buyers are learning, there isn't any consistent universal standard for grading. CAVEAT EMPTOR!! :thumb:

 

This is fun. Knowing next to nothing about grading I'll throw out
1 $373.75
2 $431.25
3 $920.00
4 $632.50

 

Doug,

Without seeing the reverses of the coins I will guess that these MS66 1902-O Morgan Dollars were as follows:

1) $373.75 This coin is basically dreck and is low end for the assigned grade. It will always trade at or below sheet.
2) $431.25 I like this coin and think it is solid for the grade but there are a number of luster grazes on the cheek. High grade Morgan collectors focus on a clean cheek so I will guess that this coin did not drive a premium
3) $632.50 The photo makes it very difficult to interpret the luster and toning but the cheek is very clean and I can see a coin like this getting a premium.
4) $920.00 A PQ MS66 and deserving of a premium price. My guess is that the buyer of this coin is hoping for and crackout upgrade.

I would like to point out Doug that the price range for a given coin is going to be much larger when the next grade up or down shows a huge price difference. The 1902-O Morgan Dollar in MS67 is $6,000 making the lure of an upgrade for a PQ MS66 worth a nice premium.

 

First, can you please stop tying all of your posts in bold. It makes them very hard to read. Secondly, you took my quote out of context. You claimed that there is no difference between and MS63 and MS65 Morgan Dollars. I am telling you without a doubt that I will never grade an MS63 Morgan as an MS65 or vice versa. The difference between 2 grades apart is obvious. When you get down to single grade disparities or grades within a grade, it becomes more difficult. I could very easily see some people grading a few of the Morgans posted in this thread MS65 and I could see some grading the last one MS67. I can't see anyone grading these MS66's as MS64 or MS68.

I am glad you have proven your theory many times with dealers. However, you have not proven anything here. Furthermore, all your experiment proves is that most dealers don't have very good grading skills and will misgrade their coins for sale more often than not. This fact bolsters the need for the TPG's and a grade assigned by a third party. It seems that you want to return to the days when only MS60 and MS65 grades existed, there were no TPGs, and unscrupulous dealers routinely fleeced their customers by marking an inferior coin MS65 and selling it at a ridiculous price. You act as if a coin that is graded MS64 by PCGS will not sell for MS64 for money simply because three dealers think the coin is MS63, 5 think it is MS64, and 2 think it is MS65. If you had conducted your experiment with professional graders from NGC and PCGS and succeeded, then I would be impressed

I will admit that Saints are much harder to grade than most series and that I completely understand your frustration with grading inconsistency in that series. However, telling us that the price disparity between common date Saints can buy 100 MS63 Morgan Dollars has no bearing on any part of this conversation and is sensationalistic in nature. Nice trick though!

 

I've only read a few pages of this thread and it appears I have happened upon somewhat of a "whine fest".

I work in a shop. My co worker has been there for 30 years and the owner has run a shop since 1966. Point is, between the three of us we have a few years experience.

Want to know how we do it? We put coins in 2x2s and put the date on them for the most part. We don't grade them and rarely price them because prices change. Most end up in the vault (our store is an old bank).

If you see a coin in a display case and are interested we get it out so YOU can get a good look and form an opinion. I generally take a better look myself first to form my own opinion.
Then I'll get a price from the boss in most cases. If he's in a good mood it may be cheaper.
If you ask my OPINION I will gladly give it to you. If I think it was cleaned I'll tell you. I'll also note scratches and dings. If you ask me to grade it I'll most likely grab an ANA book and go over the coin with you.

If you don't agree that's fine. Doesn't hurt my feelings at all. Doesn't hurt my feelings if you decide NOT to buy it either.
Believe it or not on the dealing side of the counter we can tell who is knowledgeable and who is just looking to "pick" coins. We respect those with knowledge. Pickers not so much.

Now if I give an opinion that a coin grades XF40 and you agree and purchase same and it comes back a VF35 from NGC is it MY fault. Resounding NO!
Conversely if it comes back an AU50 would you even bother to tell me? Would you offer more money on your next visit because you felt bad? I'm thinking probably not.

Selling coins DOES involve a lot of trust. If you have done YOUR work we want you as a customer because you understand.
We are not a museum. I understand this more every day. Time is money and we are not in business to show you everything we have so you can look at it and buy nothing. We have other customers.

Believe it or not I buy coins at work. Nice little fringe benefit but my boss makes money when I buy as I expect him too. At times I'll inquire about a coin and feel he has overgraded it but it's his coin. At these times I'll decline just as any customer can. No hard feelings. Most times though I will buy the coin because of MY opinion not his.

We send coins to NGC constantly. Thousands per year. A lot of it is garbage IMHO. That being modern bullion.
I am the one he asks to screen them for possible MS70 or PR70. I HATE this part of my job because I sure can't tell the difference and furthermore I don't care. Still, we get "lucky" at times and make stupid money on a piece of metal in plastic. Ebay specials as it were.

As for "real" coins sent in we are no different than most people. Sometimes we are disappointed and other times we feel we have received a "gift" grade.
If I send something in I consult with my co worker. He has a great, but certainly not infallible, eye.
The last two coins I sent in I was disappointed. It happens. The previous four I sent in two of them I consider "gifts".

My boss consults my co worker as well. Unfortunately he doesn't listen that well and sends them in anyway. Then he's upset when a coin comes back as cleaned or damaged. Well, who's fault is that? Still, we sell those coins and most often on ebay.

It all balances out in the long run basically. We send coins in for a reason and that is to sell them. Key dates ALWAYS get slabbed for authentification if nothing else.

We are NOT professional graders nor do we always agree with professional graders. We don't whine about it we just move on.

We are in business to make money as are the TPGs. I think they have become quite silly myself at times but as long as people are going to pay for "silly" services more power to them.

In closing I know every shop is different. I have worked where I am now for just over 2 years. In that time I have seen hundreds of thousands of coins. U.S. and World as well as quite a lot of paper money both U.S. and World.

We have three "coin people" at the shop (we do jewelry and stamps as well). I'd love to see anyone here with 2 good friends try and catalogue and grade the volume I've seen WHILE they are running a shop.
It's job security for me folks. I'll NEVER be caught up.

 

#1 - $920

#2 - $747.50

#3 - $632.50

#4 - $920

Chris

 

Again, without the reverses available it makes it difficult to judge the prices of these 1903-O MS66's.

1) $747.50 I don't find the toning attractive at all and compared to the other 4 coins the luster appears lacking IMO. The toning also seems to be hiding some surfaces flaws making it cleaner looking than it really is in hand. A wholesale price seems about right.
2) $920 A very bright white lustrous coin. I am not crazy about the surfaces but compared to coin #3 this has to be one of the $920 coins. I don't agree with paying that price for this coin.
3) $632.50 An attractive coin but one that seems very low end for the grade. I would much rather see this coin in an MS65 holder and I think this one brought the lowest price of the four.
4) $920 Easily the best coin of the group. It has the cleanest surfaces and a very thin attractive patina over lustrous well struck surfaces. A good candidate for a plus designation or CAC sticker IMO.