My Beef with Grading Companys....

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I have never seen the forms, but I would bet they say their grades are opinions. Technically the major issue TPG's have is that they are guaranteeing the coin is genuine. You can hold them liable for that if it is not. Are you saying that if a TPG grades a coin MS64, but someone else says its a 62 you can sue the TPG? I bet you would lose every case.

Oral contracts are enforceable, just harder to prove. I stated earlier that if you buy the coin from a dealer, and the dealer guarantees it will grade 60 or above, THEN you may hold the dealer responsible. If he tells you it is BU, it is simply his opinion, that is all.

 

The dealer may not be breaking any law, but if he/she is a member of the PNG and/or the ANA, they would be in violation of their Code of Ethics and possibly subject to sanctions.

Chris

 

Absent of evidence of reliance on a different standard - a coin represented by a dealer as BU must grade BU according to the standard generally recognized in the industry.

 

back to your original questions......

Hello HowardStern,

I think it would be cool to see some of the errors you have sent or plan to send to a TPG. I like error coins but I have only found a few major errors in circulation (and I look for them). One time I did hunt though a box of cents from the 1950s and found a bunch of die chips, RPMs, and a couple doubled die examples.

I read through everyone’s comments and I can possibly suggest a couple good books and error coin sources. You can probably find an inexpensive copy of The Error Coin Encyclopedia (The Plaid Book) by Margolis and Weinberger. This book describes the minting process and essentially all planchet, die, and striking errors. You can also contact CONECA on the Web to find some good resources.

If you have not already done so, contact Jim's Coins in Madison Wisconsin. They have an error coin mail bid sale each month & it is also on the Web.

 

Reading all this riff raff about burgers and beef makes me hungry. I'm going to Wendys.

 

Since ANA is the coin collecting industry's largest professional organization a court of law would more than likely look to their grading standard in settling a dispute. Absent of evidence that a different standard was applied and relied upon by the parties.

 

You are dreaming. The court does not look, the lawyers do. They will pick anyone with any qualifications who best supports their case - ANA, PCGS, NGC or SGS.

 

In most instances there isn't going to be any lawyers because the case would be settled in small claims court. But certainly a seller that claims to grade and sale coins according to his own non-published standard holds little weight.

 

Small claims courts have absolutely nothing to do with fraud cases. They are there only for civil suits. I guarantee you you can find no case in either small claims or other civil courts where the court in any way calls an expert.

 

Did the homeowner INSPECT the job before he signed off/paid off on it?

You would not WANT to try and eat the food shown in the commercials or ads. They are made to LOOK good. In reality they are usually inedible. As to the taco with "twice as much meat" or the "inch thick steak" typically they are shown in such a way that you can not accurately determine scale. Taco shell/ hamberger buns are smaller than the ones they actually use so it looks like there is a lot more meat. Steaks are placed on a smaller size plate and cut thicker so they weight the same as what you would be getting. They show the right amount of product, but it LOOKS much larger.

As to the AU/BU question if it is judgment call as to whether the coin is AU or BU, you will find that the TPG graders also only have a 72% "accuracy" rate. So just because it comes back as AU that doesn't mean that if you sent it in again it wouldn't come back the next time as BU. (PCGS World Series of Grading. When faced with a blind test grading PCGS graded coins that did not have the grades on the labels the TPG graders did better than the general collectors but not by much and they only agreed with the PCGS grade 75% of the time.)

Actual rates are 1,200 coins per 8 hr day or 24 seconds per coin, three coins per minute, minute after minute after minute after minute.......

24 seconds sounds like a lot for a pro, but grading isn't the only thing he has to do in that 24 seconds. Get the coin out of the box, scan the flip, remove the coin from the flip (no fingerprints please), grade the coin, put the coin back in the flip, type the grade into the computer, put the coin in the finished box. That is seven operations in 24 seconds.

If you stay with it you and become serious you will find that it is better to HAVE the books. Something you discover about serious collectors and dealers, we have LIBRARIES, and we use them.

Only since about three years ago. Before that they had NO written guarantee of authenticity. (They finally added the authenticity guarantee after after years of nagging by some posters online.) The only guarantee they had was that they would stand behind their grading opinion and compensate someone if they changed their mind. Oh and even the current guarantee does not apply to the original submitter. (Per Ron Guth in personal discussion while he was still President of PCGS.) And if you are compensated, THEY decide what the Fair Market Value is, and don't be folled into thinking it will be what they show in their price guides. And at NGC it is a take it or leave it proposition. It you don't accept what they offer you are in danger of having the problem "written off" and you get no compensation. "We offered, he declined, end of story."

 

Did the homeowner INSPECT the job before he signed off/paid off on it?

Read what I wrote. The homeowners were an ELDERLY couple. Obviously, they could not climb up on the roof to look and see if the work was actually done.

 

It's truly sad that they needed to. Honor isn't something you can buy or steal, but it's something people can lose rather easily. Of course many don't think it has any value, I guess.

 

I see what you're saying. Although I believe there are some standards, they do vary and that's a problem. If the coin industry is to survive and thrive, we must have standards, which can be relied on, albeit vary slightly based on opinions/interpretations.

 

where's the beef?

 

Utopian Expectations!!

I beg to differ with you, inasmuch as I've experienced a different world than yours. I believe you've picked some poor examples of "industries" which have stellar records of meeting expectations of known costs/services. I believe you could have also included legal services, and the automotive industry to present a facetious argument for positive consistent expectations. If we were to use the "standards" established by these industries for uniformity of expectation in the coin collecting "industry", we probably would be receiving majority of product graded "genuine". As one who spent a significant portion of his life traveling throughout the world dealing with medical problems, I can assure you that I realized great disappointment on many occasions with the delivery of myself/possessions, and never knew what criteria would be applied for boarding, personal/belongings inspection, only knowing that "carry-on" reasonably assured that myself/belongings would arrive somewhere together, if possessions weren't subjectively confiscated. The medical industry generally relies on opinions, rather than fact, as proper diagnosis would entail significant extensive/expensive observation, and has evolved as an expensive litigious industry. There is little uniformity in the TPG industry as cited by "plus grading" , CAC, etc.. I wouldn't expect a dealer, selling a "competitive product", to deliver other than an opinion, as is the modus operandi of the expensive TPG Et Al industry. Just my objective relatively inexpensive (worth at least the fee paid) opinion!!

 

I will agree that if the treatment doesn't kill you, the diagnosis might. It's appalling that these same professionals often expect to paid in advance for their opinions. That speaks volumes, doesn't it ?

 

Somewhere in my digestive tract. Mmm.

 

I'd love to post pics,,but I dont have a scanner yet, and my camera is horrible.
Right now Im relying on NGC's mediocore pictures
I have a few partial edge letterings, double clips, and dark sintered dollars I am waiting to grade
Id love to get them graded same day at the Fair...I hope its possible?