My Beef with Grading Companys....

I have no idea what country you live in, but I live in the USA and "selling something fake" absolutely is NOT a crime in my country.

BTW, I have no idea how AU versus BU became fake versus real.

 

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Really? Selling counterfeit Rolex watches isn’t illegal? Because that is what I was responding too. “If some guy stops you on the street and offers to sell you a Rolex, cheap, and you buy it - whose fault is it that you bought a fake watch ?” I would like to know what state you live in that does not consider that a crime?

 

I didnt see the need to buy any books about errors when theres ... "internets"
Then I noticed theres not much about errors online? Especially modern coin errors
Anybody reccomend and good error books on modern coins?
I just dislike buying expensive books when the info is usually somewhere online

About overgrading....I once seen a very high graded coin slabbed by NGC with a huge fingerprint on the coin! The coins owner swears it wasnt there when he submitted it. I understand NGC graders dont wear gloves when handling coins. The coin was super toned too..and the print was very noticeable!! It had to have been graded before the print. It was a sad state of affairs

 

Hopefully someone will recommend a couple of good error books for you. Sorry I don't collect them so don't know of any.

I like the internet too, I have a large list of sites I visit regularly. However, I still feel that publications usually have better information in them than most random sites. There are some good sites, though, so maybe ask for them too. I would suggest maybe posting under the error coin discussion board for suggestions. As for cost, I have never seen a numismatic book I have read as a poor value, in fact it usually makes me money many times over, and this is coming from someone who has some REAL expensive ones, they are still worth the money.

 

Regardless of whose fault it is, the buyer's or the seller's, it would be wise for the buyer to educate himself/herself, as justice ain't free. Sure there are a number of unscrupulous sellers out there, but it's going to cost the buyer, both emotionally and financially, to right the wrong. Thus, the more educated the buyer, the more able they are to avoid the scam and the headache of dealing with it all together.

 

You mean like these? http://www.fakewatch.org/ Or http://www.lifetimereplicas.com/ Or http://www.paywatches.com/rolex-watches.html

 

Just because they have a website dosn't mean it is legal. I can download new movies too, but it's still illegal.

 

When was the last time you heard of a web site being shut down for selling something illegal - but they can do it any time you please. I think you are mixing copyright/patent laws with sales. Just as a for instance, yes, it is illegal to sell a "fake" coin. If you stamp that coin "COPY", it is now legal to sell. It is just as fake as it was, but now legal.

 

There aren't any error books written specifically for modern coins.

You might consider buying a copy of Alan Herbert's Official Price Guide to Mint Errors. It's a very informative book which details almost every type of error imaginable. Like the Red Book, I wouldn't put much stock in the pricing aspect. I got my copy from Barnes & Noble for $15.

Chris

 

To quote a crusty old moderator from these forums......................Yup!

Chris

 

I really don't see how this discussion got offtrack lilke this. A comparison of a fake versus real rolex and AU or BU coin is not remotely comparable. A proper comparison is a fake versus real rolex and fake versus real coin, or a very nice versus nice rolex, (real), and a BU and AU coin. Just because a dealer calls a coin a BU and someone else grades it AU does not mean it is not a real coin, it means a slight condition disagreement has occurred. Dang, you act like if a coin is not BU it is a forgery or something.

I sure hope someone would not throw you under the bus like this if you have ever made a mistake. Or, like many have pointed out, there is no authoritative guide to grading, (legally), so how would you even know what grading standards the dealer was using? I say again that legally, (and morally to me), if a buyer inspects the coin and as long as the dealer did not "doctor" the coin to fraudulently hide damage, it is completely the buyers responsibility to decide whether to buy or not. Any grade is an OPINION, even TPG's grades are OPINIONS, not facts. No coin can have a REAL grade, just opinions, which will vary based upon what standards they use.

Someone else brought up the fact the dealer is an expert versus the public. This applies if a little old lady comes in to sell coins. The dealer has an obligation to offer fair prices and not take advantage of a non collector. Selling to a collector is something different though. The collector is NOT a member of the general public, he is a collector and is expected to have his own knowledge and be held responsible for his own decisions.

 

Of course selling a fake Rolex is illegal in the US. It's fraud.

But again, your analogy breaks down. Hard.

Either a watch is a Rolex or it isn't. There is no opinion; there is no middle ground; there is no dispute. It's discrete and clear. Either a watch is a Rolex or it isn't.

This is NOT true in coin GRADING.

If a seller claims a raw coin is XF45, that is his OPINION. In no case should any seller be accused of fraud in expressing an OPINION. You may strongly disagree, and that's your right and privilege. If a seller is routinely overgrading relative to accepted and reasonable industry practice, it will catch up to them, and soon. They'll be selling burritos at Taco Bell.

Of course, there are cases where a coin seller can be guilty of a discrete fraud. Altering a 1944-D Lincoln to look like a 1914-D is a clear case of fraud, just like selling fake a Rolex. There are many other cases.

 

If a dealer represents a coin as uncirculated absent of any qualifying statements as to grading standards then the coin must meet grading standards which are generally recognized within the industry - ANA.

 

Ethically, the dealer SHOULD treat the old lady fairly. I will bet you cannot show me any law he would break by cheating her. And then you get into the gray areas. The dealer would need a degree in psychology (and others) to determine a "little old lady", from an actor, from a blatant scam artist.

 

Says basic common contract law. TPGs grading services are evidenced in writing as part of their submission forms - buying a coin from a dealer in most instances is an oral contract.

 

If you wish, I could. There are many state consumer protection laws holding dealers to higher standards and prohibiting them from lying to members of the public. I helped with a police sting in the late 70's in Iowa that arrested and prosecuted traveling silver buyers, (and one local dealer). who intentionally underpaid for rarer coins when buying bulk silver. PM me if you want details, or I could post them here. If anyone remembers Ben Marlene he supplied the 1893s for the sting.

Absent those laws, you are correct. It is more an ethical issue, not a legal one. Good point, thank you.