Would you buy these 'ancient' coins?

L SEP SEVERVS PER AVG PM IMP XI / VICT AVGG COS II PP - no D's
The H coin is a low grade 'tourist' modern cast fake. This sort of thing was sold by cute kids and old men at sites in the Near East to tourists looking for souveniers. It has every sign of being a cast fake that you could ask for but they still fool many people. This one copies a relatively common coin of Septimius Severus from the Laodicea mint. I was given this coin about 30 years ago and do not know where it came from originally. Judging from style, the original used to make these was probably genuine. I wonder what the grandchildren of the cute kids are selling to tourists today.

 

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I see the sprue at 1 o'clock. I also see some softness. Without seeing the edges or feeling the metal, what are the other tell tale signs on this coin Doug?

 

The backwards D on "H" is actually just a bad G in the legend VICT AVGG COS II PP. It's a limes denarius, a bronze copy of the official silver denarii. It was issued in border regions commonly during the Severan dynasty. Some were struck, others were cast, and the reasons for these issues are open to speculation. They fall under the umbrella of "emergency currency" but the economic details are uncertain.

I love Severan coins, but I'm a little wary of the limes. Early on, my very first Severans were bought cheap from a reasonably well-known and fairly reputable dealer. I wasn't too sure what I was buying at the time, but the price was right and I found them appealing. Once I started buying some better examples from the dynasty, I knew there was something off about my initial purchases and eventually concluded they were fakes. Then I learned about the limes denarii, which really only confused matters. Although my limes are clearly of the cast variety, there's a question whether they were cast in antiquity or modern times.

The dealer still sells limes denarii (now more clearly labeled as limes) and has even had them authenticated by a respected authority. But a lot of the ancient coin collecting community have concluded that he's offering modern cast fakes and I tend to agree. Although there's a variety of types he sells, they're all too consistent and similar -- possibly even identical in some cases, though I haven't bothered to watch his auctions closely enough to confirm this.

Suffice to say, I prefer to concentrate on the official releases from the Rome mint. So I would likely pass on this Septimius Severus unless I saw I really tempting price on it.

But I would happily grab all the barbarous imitations. I love the often wild stylistic interpretations of common Roman types these tribal engravers would come up with. The more outlandish, the better. The only ones I stay away from are the types that are such good copies, it's questionable whether they're official or not (I like the answer to that question to be obvious). But if the legend screams illiteracy and the portrait looks like a monstrous cartoon, I'm in!

 

The coin has a seam all the way around the edge, bad softness and is made of pot metal rather than a silver alloy. Some of these don't show in a photo as badly as they do on the coin in hand but many people buy based on photos. Perhaps I am too hard on this coin. There are worse ones but this is still pretty obvious even in the photo.

 

Ah, I see there was some back and forth while I was writing my post.

I often still can't tell the difference between the modern cast Severan and a limes cast Severan. Since both types were often cast from a real original using similar techniques, the results look quite alike. More reason for me to stay away.

 

I agree, I avoid Limes cast Severans as well and have very few. I do have some Limes struck Severans but am of the opinion that there are some ancient cast versions so they could be considered collectable. There are a few other categories of 'questionable' coins I probably should have included in that group. Part of the reason for this whole post was to make the point that there are gray areas between official coins and fakes. I believe all beginners would be better off sticking to coins with fewer questions.

I am a bit amazed that no one called me on including the coin that 99% of collectors would be glad to have and consider fully collectable.

 

Carausius? Dont really know much about him, but just reading about his coins, more than half are barborus!? is that right?

 

The Carausius, right? I'd certainly love to have that, but that was so good in comparison to the rest that I was thinking that there was something wrong with it.

 

Yes, Carausius was the one. Yes, many of his coins were made by mints with technical difficulties but his main shops did very good work. Technically he was never a 'real' emperor being something between a usurper and renegade ruler of the far off lands in the North. He made a lot of coins and many are still being found in the UK. He wanted to be recognized as full Augustus but the real ones would have nothing to do with that. Some of his coins, including B, show the reverse abbreviation AVGGG meaning that he recognized three Augusti. He also issued coins in the names of Diocletian and Maximianus with the AVGGG legends but they did not reciprocate. I wonder if they ever saw the coins he issued and wonder what they said.

If you want to get me a coin of questionable validity as a present, please make it this one:
http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=86969

Even poor grade coins of the 3 jugate bust Fratres Sui types sell for good money but add 'nicest known' to a description and the price always goes up (even if the coin was unofficial as far as Diocletian and Maximianus were concerned). Coin B was made very close to the same time in the same mint (Camulodunum) as the $25000 one but, fortunately for my collection, lacks the appeal of the three bust model.

 

If I ever find one we can make a trade

btw heres a link I was looking at on Carausius if n e one wants to see.

http://www.kenelks.co.uk/coins/carausius/carausius.htm

 

heres a couple that made their way into my collection

 

The last is the famous Readers Digest ad fake. Millions were mailed out as an ad for a book on Ancient Greece glued to a card. I wouldn't mind having a set on card but most have been removed. Many have had the word copy scratched off. I suspect there are a thousand people who have them handed down from grandpa as something valuable.

Can you read the legend on the first?

 

I have a couple of the Readers Digest ad fakes in fact found one today in the 25 cent bin. I saw them on your site. If I do manage to see one still attached I'll nab it for you

As for the barbarous, I need to look a lil more closer at it but I think its a match with this one

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-14095

It looks like CONSTNNT-NSNNG, and I see [?]SIS in ex.

 

Rather than allowing this to die a noble death, I'll cover the two coins no one found of interest just in case someone happens on this thread later and might benefit.

Coin G is a replica made by the famous copyist Peter Rosa who worked mostly in the 1960's an decades that followed. He died in 1990. His work is extensively covered in Wayne Sayles' excellent book on fakes, Classical Deception. Rosa never sold his fakes as real but refused to mark them and might be the major factor that led to the US law requiring copies to be marked (which meant mainstream publications refused his ads for copies). Many of Rosa's copies were copied from originals of the earlier German copy-master Becker. Rosa made both casts and struck copies using silver, lead, pewter and even plaster as the medium. There are thousands of variations on his work and it is not a bad idea to check his catalog before buying something he copied. My Nero example G is as poor as his get being cast in white metal.

Finally, coin I, is a struck ancient plated copy of the Limes type. The coin shows a very small patch or remaining silver. The dies were original and cut by someone with skill. The obverse legend is correct for Clodius Albinus but the face sure looks like Septimius Severus (who never is shown with a bare head). The reverse is very normal looking but belongs to Commodus and is a couple years older than should be used with that obverse. This mismatching is not at all rare with Severan era copies. The coin could be classed as quite rare but almost no one cares. I bought this one from the estate of a collector who helped me a lot in my earlier days so it is special to me. I would enjoy seeing other fourree/limes coins of Clodius Albinus if you run across them.

Thanks to those who participated in this. I made a half dozen images with questions that turned out to be unwanted for their intended audience so I used the photo here rather than just writing it off as a total loss.

 

Thanks again Doug for this very informative and intersting post. I hope if shows new and not so new collectors the gamut of non-imperial coins, from ancient copies to modern fakes.

Good post all around. I learned a lot.

 

If you have the time, please post more like this

 

I enjoyed this thread and learned alot from it. Thats what makes posting on this board fun & valuable.

 

thought I'd add one more too

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Marcus Aurelius, 7 March 161 - 17 March 180 A.D., Ancient Counterfeit with Faustina II Reverse
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Silver denarius, for reverse cf. RIC III Faustina II A506a, Fair, illegal mint, weight 1.553g, maximum diameter 17.3mm, die axis 0o, obverse laureate head right; reverse LAETITIAE PVBLICAE, Laetitia standing left, diadem in right, scepter in right​

"Interesting hybrid of a Marcus Aurelius obverse with a Faustina II reverse (RIC A506a.)"​

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A very engaging thread. You have good taste.

Looking at this, I would have taken A,B,C,F,H,I,K. The Paduan medallion is absolutely gorgeous and extremely eye catching. I would have left the fourées though (already have enough of them). The only two that confused me were the Carausius and H, but your following posts made that clear to me.

Might as well share some other imitations:
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=1602


Cast Imitation of the 2nd century
PB as, 27mm
bare head r.
ANTONIN[...]
Annona standing r., left foot on prow, modius on knee, rudder in hand.
[...] COS IIII, SC
cf. RIC III, p. 155 note



Struck Imitation of the 3rd century
AE denarius, 18mm
laureate head r.
Uncertain figure standing l., holding laurel branch


Struck Imitation of the 1st century
Minerva as
bare head r.
Minerva advancing r., holding shield and brandishing spear, SC
Sutherland Grade III

Found in Canterbury, Kent.

 

A very interesting group

H, it turns out, is more educational than I thought. In hand, I consider the item in no way deceptive and so obviously a cast of no quality. If such a coin was shown well enough on the photo that anyone with coin experience did not pick it out immediately as bad, we must be more careful when judging coins only from photos.