1923 US $20 Gold Coin NGC MS 64

Sure, here you go!





- Steven

 

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At the very top edge of the slab looks like it has been pryed on? Are you sure it is sealed? That coin has a lot of marks to be a 64. Ice

 

You guys REALLY want to say this isn't what it says it is And I'd buy that, except that every auction with good photos that I've seen for the same or even higher grades have similar or even worse markings. The plastic, of course, has seen better days. But no, it hasn't been pryed on and yes, it is sealed.

I wonder... can I send this coin back to NGC to have it re-graded and encased? That way the plastic will be perfect and there would be no question as to the validity.

 

There seems to be much paranoia in this thread. I don't see anything that would lead be to think that the coin is not authentic. The slab looks fine, the coin looks fine, and given that we only have really crappy scans to judge, I would be inclined to accept the assigned grade given by NGC.

There is no reason to have the coin reholdered IMO. Looking at Heritage auction archives, 1923 $20 MS64's have been realizing between $1,600-$1,800 over the last year.

 

Thanks. I did the best I could with the scans, but I agree that the professional grading service would be the best indication. My point of posting originally was to get a sense of value, so thank you for your objective response.

- Steven

 

how do I know if the coin is circulated or uncirculated? On eBay they ask that and I don't know the answer. "Unknown" is an option.

- Steven

 

Because this coin is graded MS64, it is by definition uncirculated. Experienced collectors will realize this immediately from the grade.

 

Thank you. So does that mean that back in 1923, right from the get-go... it was meant for a collection? Then I have to wonder why they didn't take better care of it I suppose in 100 years from now, all modern coins will be graded "perfect" because they pretty well all start their lives in plastic, no?

 

I could be a coin someone picked up at the bank and just didn't store as well. And no most coins won't be perfect 70's many coins from the mint come in at 66 and lower. Ice

 

the scans of the case and all make it look better, so i guess it was the first set playing tricks.

most collectors, will pay more attention to the coin then the slab. so i would definitely find a way to get better pictures that don't make it looked so scratched up. with this coin its very good that you got it slabbed because of all the fakes, so you have that working for you. but again, if a potential buyer see's what looks like scratches and see's a ms64 grade, they may be scared off, thinking the slab is fake or tampered with.

i wouldn't get it graded again, unless it looks tampered with. if all is fine, just make sure the new pictures that show there is no scratches or marks on the coin. the picture should show all the detail as well.

in the link bellow it has pictures of your coin in each grade, and an ms64, should look a lot better then what your pictures show. it should actually look near perfect...
http://www.pcgs.com/photograde/#/20Saint/Grades

its a nice coin and i hope you get a good price for it.

 

The coin does have scratches and marks... and that's what makes it an MS64. The picture you linked to on pcgs is not nearly as high quality - it may be a better photograph but it is MUCH smaller - even still you can see marks all over it as well. It is nowhere near "perfect".

The scan of the case and the scan of the coin is the EXACT SAME IMAGE. I simply cropped the first set to just show the coin. I did not make a new scan and the resolution is idential. So you can absolutely see the exact same detail (and all scratches, etc) in both the case photo and the coin photo.

- Steven

 

MS means "mint state". that is the top of the grading scale....

there are some lower ones but for the most part it goes.

ag(almost good)
g(good)
vg(very good)
F(fine)
vf(very fine)
xf(extra fine)
au(almost uncirculated)
ms(mint state)

from what i see from your second set of photo's, i have no problem with it being a ms64, thats not what i am trying to say..

i am just letting you know, it would be wise to find a way to get better pictures if you want to sell it online.

if you could get a ms64 coin that appears to have a ton of scratches or one with none, what would you buy?

 

Perhaps I should just do what eBay sellers do and put WORSE photos on, not better. I do believe my photos accurately represent the coin - though some of the scratches are on the plastic, there are a significant number of markings on the coin surfaces themselves. I scanned that at 1200 DPI so you're able to see just about everything. So perhaps a samller, lower resolution scan would have been better. Less detail = less markings. When you look carefully at the PCGS MS64 pic, you can see shadows and if they had as high quality image as I've uploaded, I'm sure it would have tons of scratches visible too.

So my problem seems to be that my "crappy" scans are too good (in terms of accurately representing the surface) but doing myself a disservice in that they are not good enough (in showing it in the best light for marketability)

- Steven

 

I want to again say that there is no "second set" of photos. They are the exact same photos. The first were simply cropped to show only the coin, and rotated so they were up. The resolution was untouched. They are in every way identical images.

So anyone saying they see something different in the 2nd set than the first... its you imagination (other than GDJMSP, who's comment is obviously valid as it pertains to the case and not the coin).

 

Maybe someone mixed up the pics on this one. Sure seems like a lot of deep scratches on that one. I am missing the lustre part too. Perhaps there is a MS64 out there, but I am not feeling like this is the one.

If it is in a slab, run by a pro to see if it is a counterfeit (slab packaging). The coin may be gold, but I sure would not trust that label.

 

Good point and one I had not considered.

 

As it happens, I hope the majority of you guys are right! I hope its not an MS-64! In fact, anyone that's confident that it isn't, should be making me an offer

I emailed NGC and they phoned me back and they'd like to take a look at the coin.
I told them that "experts" claimed it was not as good as it was graded.
The gist of it is... I can submit it for review and if it is determined that in fact it should have been a lower grade coin, then they will replace it with a proper MS64 graded coin. He did confirm the serial number and it is an authentic NGC certificate and the coin description matches the photos shown here so he's "all but certain" it hasn't been tampered with.

I suppose best case scenario is that you're all wrong and it magically comes back as an MS-65 or higher... that'd be nice, but not realistic. Next best is that it grades lower than MS-64 so that I get a replacement coin guaranteed to be of appropriate value to what I thought I had. I suppose worst case scenario is that it is what it says it is, and I'm out $25 for nothing (although he suggested he may waive the fee if I'm not in a hurry).

- Steven

 

your just not getting it...

a coin graded ms64 should not have many deep scratches, period. i never said they were two different sets of photos, just that when they were zoomed in, it showed a coin that would not surprise me if it came back in a lot lower grade. then when i seen the original, i noticed it was more likely the holder causing the problems i was seeing.

i was only trying to help you sell it, by telling you to get better pictures. even under higher magnification then what your scans are, the coin should not look like that. i think most are the holder and not the coin, but its hard to tell with those pictures. if it really is close to what is shown in the closeups, then there could be something wrong..

just because the numbers on the slab match up, doesn't mean its legit. most fake coin makers, will make a duplicate number of a real slab.(when was this coin purchased? if you know).

i guess in this case its just better to get it re-slabbed. you will have a holder that will show no scratches and make it easier for you to get accurate pictures. worst case, they send it back as a fake, but for some reason i doubt that. even if they do, its best you found out before you sold it.

 

Look, I'm not the expert but I"m not an idiot either. And I'm sorry, but I think its you that doesn't "get it" - especially after speaking with the gentleman at NGC. He said quite clearly that gold coins MS 64 (or even up to 67) WILL have scratches and marks similar to those in my photo - and that's evidenced when you compare it to the PGCS link earlier... it also has similar markings. So I really think you're just overstating what MS 64 means. Perhaps you aren't familiar with gold (softer metal)? I don't know.

And yes I'm satisfied it is not a fake. Beyond a doubt unless you consider the craziest of coincidences. He looked at the photos and said it was consistent with the notes on that coin's file (I have to make some presumptions, but I take it that its a bit like graded diamonds... a file is kept detailing significant identifying markings). It is the same coin. It DOES have "deep scratches". And it IS an MS64 (or at least was graded as such at the time by a professional far more qualified than you or I). Period.

I do realize that you were trying to help. I get that. And sure, the advice to use the best photos and present it in the best way is sound. But you (and not just you) are really going to more effort than I'd expect to trash the coin. I'm sorry, but I'll defer to the experts on this.

I really wish I had never posted the photo. There was no need. With the NGC data and the presumption of authenticity (and really, that's gotta be some 99.9999___% of them), all I wanted was an estimated value.

That's been given. Thank you.

- Steven

ps. though I do appreciate what I've learned through this discussion!