"PCGS Announces Next Steps to Improve and Protect Hobby"

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by raider34, May 28, 2010.

  1. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Is this the same Eric Steinberg of Broward County Coins and Collectibles, Inc, or Silvano DiGenova, CEO of Tangible Asset Galleries (and founding member of PCGS), or Greg Krill of North Bay Rare Coin and Jewelry, or Robert Lehmann of The Reeded Edge?

    Fascinating....
     
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  3. Mad.Outcast

    Mad.Outcast New Member

    I find it AMAZING!! that they can X-ray a coin and analyze micro particles to detect alterations,but they still use humans to grade coins,with numerous in-consistencies in grading.OH did I mention that they can add up to a full point of grade,based on "eye appeal" alone.So you get a "mechanical" extra point of grade,for something non "mechanical"
     
  4. tmoneyeagles

    tmoneyeagles Indian Buffalo Gatherer

    When there have been enough coins for a big enough sample, I'd like to see PCGS's report of how many coins they have not graded due to something their new system picked up.
     
  5. dwhiz

    dwhiz Collector Supporter

    This is "BIGGER " than the Big One, about time.
     
  6. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Anybody with the money to afford the equipment, or that can pay a lab to do it, has access to this stuff - X-ray spectrometry (EDX), Fournier Transform Infra-Red Spectral analysis (FT-IR), Raman Spectroscopy. But I can't see any TPG other than PCGS or NGC doing it either.

    And the use of such machines would absolutely drive the cost of grading up significantly. That's why only the most expensive coins would ever be submitted to such testing. The one exception might be gold coins that are tested for the presence of putty. That is probably the most prevalent of all the doctoring techniques used. And PCGS has been burned by it many times.

    When they, PCGS, says - "We have already filed a patent which covers the methodology and unique techniques we are using for processing coins." - I'm not sure that you can patent methodology and techniques. But I guess time will tell on that.
     
  7. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    That's because humans can do things that machines cannot do.

    Actually a coin can get more that a full point added for exemplary eye appeal. But so what ?
     
  8. Mad.Outcast

    Mad.Outcast New Member

  9. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    You absolutely can patent methodology/techniques. That is exactly how and for what I got my patent.
     
  10. Mad.Outcast

    Mad.Outcast New Member

  11. Lugia

    Lugia ye olde UScoin enthusiast

    but if you (the submitter) know a coin is doctored isnt it in pcgs best interest to do it anyway for coins of a certain value? the guarantee will still be there so they should use it to protect themselves maybe?
     
  12. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    Making the plastic used in Xerox dry ink. The last I heard, they were still using it, but phasing it out.
     
  13. Mad.Outcast

    Mad.Outcast New Member

  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    It's been discussued many times. In fact it's been tried more than once - didn't work. Still won't work. And it won't work for the reason I mentioned. Eye appeal and quality of luster - the two most important criteria there are in grading - are subjective qualities. And machines cannot make subjective judgements because they cannot think. Only humans can think.

    Deal with it.
     
  15. Mad.Outcast

    Mad.Outcast New Member

  16. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    When I first started on computers, I heard that computers could never play chess because there were more moves available than grains of sand on earth. No computer could ever have that much memory. Yeah, right!:hammer::computer:

    It may not be practical today, although I am guessing Bill Gates could afford to have it for you this year if he really put his mind to it. However, I will bet they come out with one this decade.
     
  17. Mad.Outcast

    Mad.Outcast New Member

  18. grizz

    grizz numismatist

    ...WOW!!!! this surely will P... OFF the smoking collectors and dealers

    and.............:rolleyes:
     
  19. chip

    chip Novice collector

    I agree that anytime someone comes up with something to stop fraud and deception it is a good thing. I am more inclined to desire to purchase some coin from a dealer or collector who leaves the salesmanship at home. A couple of dealers who are also members of coin talk regularly will detail any perceived problems with coins that they are selling, other dealers I have seen, instead replace good pictures and accurate descriptions with hyperbole and hucksterisms.

    I recognize some of the names on the defendants list, and here is another aspect of the case, some of those names had in my opinion reputations as being rock star type dealers, some of those in the stratosphere, maybe it is my newness showing.

    It brings up the point how hard it is to gain a good reputation, you cannot demand it as if it were some court of law and everybody is entitled to be considered ethical, fair and empathetic unless proven otherwise. It is sort of like the reputation used car sellers have, or politicians, slimy denizens who will kiss a baby for the cameras and then throw grandma under the bus if they see something in it for them. But that perception of ethical dealing and accuracy is easier lost than gained, those dealers who are named have lost more than some scam if it is indeed a scam, courts will judge, but despite any courts judgement those dealers will be scrutinized more closely than they would have if they had never been named.

    I would guess that there are quite a few collectors/investors who are looking into that coin or slab that they received from one of the dealers named. In addition there are many other dealers who now have to also consider certain things in dealing with them. How could a dealer who has lost that reputation ever hope to regain it?

    Shakespeare wrote in Othello, he who steals my purse steals trash, but he who steals my reputation steals all that I have.
     
  20. Mad.Outcast

    Mad.Outcast New Member

  21. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    Oh! Ye of little faith. When they site coin, problem and specifically what was done to the coin, they win easily. No jury (jurist?) has enough knowledge to refute it.
     
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