Silver State Quarters PR70 or PR69?

I'm curious as to anybody's thoughts on the silver state quarters. I would like to buy a set in the PCGS Flag holders. I know, you should buy the coin, not the holder, but I think the flag holders are pretty cool, and would be nice to display...

That being said, I feel like the PR69s are a dime a dozen, and may not hold their value over time. It's my opinion that the vast majority of proofs out there would probably grade PR69. The PR70s, however, seem to be harder to come by, and command a much higher premium. Not to mention, they seem more scarce than NGC 70s....

Is it worth going for the 70s? What would be a good price?

I'm monitoring eBay prices and it certainly seems best to buy at least annual sets, instead of trying to find good deals individually. I'm not counting ridiculous buy it now prices. I only monitor prices with true auctions and at least 5 bids. That gives me a better idea of their "true worth"...

Any advice would be appreciated...

 

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What makes you think that PF69's are a dime a dozen?

What makes you think that NGC has graded more PF70's than PCGS?

Have you checked the PCGS & NGC Pop Reports?

If I showed you a PF69UCAM and a PF70UCAM with the grades hidden, would you be able to tell which is which with a 10x loupe?

Why do you think PF70's would be a better value when you don't even know how much they should cost?

Are you aware that PF70 SQ's have dropped substantially in value since the end of the program?

What makes you think PF70's will hold their value better than PF69's?

I'd give you my opinion, but you've already made up your mind. Besides, you think the little flags on the PCGS inserts are neat.

Chris

 

<ouch>

I see you only have 11 posts.

According to the previous poster, it's ok to go outside and shoot yourself.

Seriously, the guy must have had a bad burrito.

I can't answer you question, but I think you'll get a more "normal" response soon.

And of course, I've now opened myself up to whatever will happen

 

This has what to do with anything?

Why because cpm is asking very logical questions of the OP?

 

My opinion - stick to the 69's. Most dealers and experts have a tough time telling a 69 from a 70. Plus there will always be an abundant supply of these coins around. I don't see a significan increase in any of the modern graded coins - well maybe in a hundred years or so. Decide how you want to collect them and go for it. Personally - I like the though of the annual sets stuck in a dansco or intercept album - easier to see them without all the slabs. Just my own opinion.

 

I like the silver proofs and satins - nice low mintage for a rendition of a circulating coin. I buy both regularly and I'd have to agree with the consensus here, don't see paying a premium for one grade higher, when it's tough, if not impossible to tell the difference. I'd go as far as to speculate the difference of one grade depends on whether or not the grader had one or two cups of coffee that day.

 

Dear cpm9ball,

It's sad that people like you have such a feeble existence in life that you have to berate someone who may know less about a subject than you do to feel better about yourself. It's clear that you know more than I on this subject, but do you have to belittle someone seeking help? I was in no way stating facts, but just my first time observations. Did you notice I used phrases like "feels like" and "seems to me"? Clearly I want to learn. Hence why I came to this site. If you truly have the knowledge that you THINK you do, help someone learn. Don't make them feel stupid. But, it has been my experience in life that the people who yell the loudest or belittle people the most, really don't know much at all.

If you have some real substance to add... please, I would love any and all CONSTRUCTIVE feedback. That's the only way I can make a better investment, and learn. If all you want to do is be mean, take it somewhere else.

 

berneck1,

If what I have said has made you or someone else stop and think about what they are saying and/or doing, then the sum total of my feeble existence has been worthwhile. Honestly, I wasn't trying to single you out to make fun of you or berate you, but let's examine what you said.

In your last post, you spoke of "making a better investment". So far, you haven't said anything about having a passion for numismatics. If it is just an investment you are looking to acquire, then most veteran dealers will tell you that you are in the wrong field. You can make much more money investing in real estate. If your desire is to acquire precious metals as an investment, then forget about collecting specialty coins like the silver states quarters. You'd be better off buying bullion where there is no premium attached for "collectibility".

In your first post, you mentioned acquiring coins that would hold their value based on grade, i.e., 69's vs. 70's. Okay, let's examine the States Quarters Program from it's inception.

First, there is no question that the SQ Program created a frenzy in the numismatic world, and encouraged millions of new collectors to enter the arena. Some of these new collectors got on board a little too late, and the "feeding frenzy" that ensued drove prices for the early issues to artifical highs. This frenzy continued for several years, and served to support higher values for coins graded PF70. You also have to keep in mind that the Mint didn't start selling individual sets of the Silver Proof SQ's until 2004 or 2005 (can't remember which). If you wanted just the quarters prior to this, you had to buy the entire set.

Now that the program has ended, these artificiallly high values have dropped considerably, and in some cases as much as 60%-80%. Anyone who bought these coins during the feeding frenzy will lose a huge amount if they ever decide to sell. Will these "moderns" hold their value in the future? Probably not unless the price of silver skyrockets. There were approximately 65 million silver proof SQ's struck during the program, and it is safe to say that 15% were graded PF70, and yes, PCGS graded just as many 70's as NGC! That means that there are nearly 10 million PF70's on the market. How can anyone believe that these coins will hold their value, and give you a profitable return 10, 25 or 50 years down the road based on nothing more than collectibility?

Furthermore, if you look at the modern proof sets going all the way back to 1968, you will find only a small handful that have maintained high values, and that is only because of specific varieties, like the "No S" coins. As far as overall collectibility is concerned, you can buy nearly all of these sets for less than they originally cost, and that is a 40+ year track record that is hard to ignore where your "investment" dollars are concerned.

Yes, I can look at a raw, proof modern and tell you if it will grade 69 or 70 because I have looked at thousands upon thousands of them in-hand in both grades, and I've learned what both NGC & PCGS look for to substantiate it. Many collectors, particularly newcomers, can't tell the difference. So, why should you spend the added premium for a 70? You would be able to buy 5 or more 69's for the cost of one 70.

If you have resentment for my comments because I shot down your idea, then at least I have achieved one thing. It has opened your eyes to the possibility that maybe this is not such a good idea. Just think of me as your "friendly" Drill Instructor at Parris Island. Sometimes, there is a method to my madness.

Have a great day!

Chris

 

OK.. Here is my advice...

• This is a hobby and if there is any intrinsic economic appreciation attached to what you collect, it is a bonus.
• As a hobby, collect what you like!
• The market value of all coins, ancient through modern is subject to fluctuation; sometimes extreme fluctuation, so buy what you can afford!
• Grading is subjective... There is no empirical method for grading!
• Packaging runs the gamut from 2x2 flips, album sheets, original government issue, third party "contrived" "pedigreed" special packaging through to secure, hologram holders.
• Buy the book, FIRST!
• The "price" is what you value the coin(s) in relationship to all your other possessions.

Thanks for sharing your questions and enjoy the hobby.

 

Just an FYI, Chris is someone you could learn much from concerning collecting. He was not belittling anyone in his post. Coming on the forum and making statements as quoted above is not called for. Chris is quite well respected here, as are his opinions.

 

You do realize they'll grade any legitimate coin so long as it doesn't have altered surfaces, unnatural toning, and other such problems? These aren't too common on moderns so they'll grade almost anything they get and they get just about anything that's worth the cost of grading.

Moderns have been having the most dramatic price increases of all coins for many years now. Why would you expect this to stop when rare coins that are in widespread demand have a fraction of the cost of comparably rare old coins?

 

...post in haste

I shoulkd have left this thread alone.

I think a lot of people are buying 70's who really should be buying 69's or raw. It depends on the specific individual and the specific coins and their relative prices. Some people just have to have the best and there's nothing wrong with that. Some people can fully appreciate the value of the higher grade and can easily afford it.

But the fact is that these do come extremely nice and many collectors have a lot of difficulty seeing the attributes which result in the highest grades. It simply doesn't make sense to spend a lot more on coins that are indiscernably different unless you are buying them for appreciation. This might not be a bad bet since as collectors mature more may be able to see the difference and the demand increase. More collectors might enter the hobby and put more stress on the lower supplies. But it is generally not wise to invest in any sort of collectible and this means coins too. Yes, most coin collectors take a flyer on a coin once in a while but generally collectors prefer to "invest" in coins they can buy at under market or something which they know market price is too low because of what they've learned as a collector.

I usually advise people who have the access to coins to get out and look at the raw coins. Pick through dealer stock and select superior examples and make your own set. When it comes time to sell you'll quite possibly have to spend the money to get them graded but in the mean time you have the best of all worlds; highest quality, near lowest price, and you've saved the grading fees.

70's are great coins but you have to pay the price to have them. 69's are great coins too and often look ridiculously underpriced but raw coins tend to be even cheaper and often as nice as 69's.

To each his own.

 

Not sure what in my post brought about the first paragraph - but yes any tpg will grade any coin. But I was just pointing out that a lot of the experts can't tell a 69 to a 70. These coins will always be available.

Now lets discuss moderns - typically when first released you see a spike in the prices. Then they start leveling out. Now lets talk about survivabilty rates - all these slabbed moderns will still be around in 25 or 50 years. No real reason to mess with a 70 - so all these slabbed 70's will still be there. See cpm9ball's response. I won't argue about about the recent gains, but I do not see them holding in the long run. Maybe when bullions prices out pace the numismatic value. I have nothing against moderns - but I think a nice dansco album of the quarters would look nicer. I actually like my albums better than the slab sets - but I keep both. As to the OP they need to just decide which is best for them and go for it. I want them to enjoy the hobby. Just my opinion.

 

berneck1: I also like the look of the silver proof state quarters. Hold one next to a clad or even a satin, and the silver is the best looking (at least to me ). I have never purchased one slabbed though so cannot advise you. The only ones I have are raw (in U.S. Mint silver proof sets). Because the vast majority in these sets would likely grade PR68-70, perhaps the most inexpensive way to build (and enjoy) a set of these coins may be to buy old silver proof sets. You can actually buy some years for at right about the mint issue price or even less...the closer to silver spot the better. Check out mintproducts.com or moderncoinmart.com for some decent prices. TC

 

IMHO, PR70's only have value for registry sets or bragging rights as I have seen MANY PR70DCAM coins which in all reality, should not have been graded as such.

My other opinion is that very FEW coins actually "deserve" that PR70 moniker and 95% of them are simply awarded, not earned.

Or, I suppose you could say "earned" if you submitted enough coins.

Take your pick!

So, given my opinion and feelings on the subject, my advice is to avoid the PR70's and instead choose yourself a nice classic to "invest" in.

Unless of course, you can manage to find one of those in that 5 percentile.

 

i thought and 70s were rare to non-existent in coins. have the standards dropped or was i misinformed? i was under the impression that an ms70 was worth a lot simply because of its rare perfection

 

On certain moderns there are plenty of them. Seems like in the last 10 years or so is that NGC/TPGs are finding more and more.

 

perhaps their standards have dropped?

 

There is a difference between PF70 and MS70. The Mint's proof program has advanced to the point that PF70 Ultra Cameo and PF70 Deep Cameo are produced with great consistency. It's not that simple when it comes to business strikes, and we're not talking about the satin finish coins that are being produced for the Mint Sets since 2005. Special care, almost as great as the care used for processing the proof coins, is given in the production and handling of all the coins that go into the Mint Sets. Finding MS70's in the Mint Sets is like finding tadpoles in a pond. That isn't the case for business strikes. They come off the production line like rocks on a conveyor belt in a quarry and are dumped into huge collection bins in bulk for transport to the bagging and rolling facility. Anyone who can find a post-2004 MS70 business strike will have a true rarity. I searched bags from 2005-2007 and the highest grade I've ever gotten was MS68.

Chris

 

Hardly!

The 70 grade has been an "acceptable risk" by the top TPG's since around 2006. The market has been so flooded by the grade that literally ANY large submission is almost guaranteed a PR70 or MS70 grade!

Current prices reflect the availability of the coins with that grade and IMO, it has as much relative numismatic value as many of the specialty slab labels that have been marketed to the awaiting public.

If you submit and receive 70's then great but I'd really hesitate before paying any significant premium for a 70.