Dealer Rant re: + Grading & CAC verification

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Catbert, May 1, 2010.

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  1. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator


    To a point, I would disagree with the above quote as I edited it. If one knows the grading standards of the various TPGs then any given grade does provide a pretty good idea of what a coin looks like. At the least, you have an either - or situation.

    Say a Morgan is graded MS63 by PCGS and has the CAC sticker. Without ever seeing the coin I know a few things. The coin likely has many many bag marks, some of them major and in prime focal areas. It will typically have subdued luster. It may or may not be toned, that you don't know, but more than likely it has been dipped and is untoned. Or - if the coin is attractively toned then it will have even more serious bag marks and less luster. It will typically be of average strike. It will have many frost breaks and probably even have some light wear on the the high points.

    The above descrition will probably fit 90% of all Morgans graded MS63 by PCGS.

    You can do the same thing with any grade. Of course you are making an assumption that is correctly graded, but the CAC sticker helps there. And if it does not have a CAC sticker then you know that it either never been submitted to them or that they rejected it. In either case, you have the either or situation again - it will be this or it will be that.

    This is the entire purpose of grading. A grade does describe a coin and it describes it fairly accurately most of the time. But to know what that description is you have to know the grading standards for each TPG. So when people say that they don't know what a coin looks like based on the numerical grade assigned, then I would have to say that that person does not know the grading standards.

    Now of course every coin must actually be seen by you in the end, and it is then that you decide if it was graded accurately or not and either keep the coin or return it.
     
    GDJMSP, May 2, 2010
    #21 + Quote Reply
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  3. AdamL

    AdamL Well-Known Member

    Good read. Ever since CAC started up I have been questioning the concept of grading the graders.
     
    AdamL, May 2, 2010
    #22 + Quote Reply
  4. Tom B

    Tom B TomB Everywhere Else

    A wise collector would never question the concept of grading the graders.
     
    Tom B, May 2, 2010
    #23 + Quote Reply
  5. AdamL

    AdamL Well-Known Member

    ok. Thats your opinion.
     
    AdamL, May 2, 2010
    #24 + Quote Reply
  6. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    Excellent! Thanks for the read :)
     
    mpcusa, May 2, 2010
    #25 + Quote Reply
  7. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins

    green18, May 2, 2010
    #26 + Quote Reply
  8. Tom B

    Tom B TomB Everywhere Else

    It may be my opinion, but one would indeed be mighty foolish to discount it in the manner that you seem to be discounting it. If you understand what I am writing you will realize that this is not necessarily a blind endorsement of CAC, but it is an endorsement of personal responsibility. If you spend your money, time or other resources in this hobby then you may want to protect yourself and one way to do that is with knowledge. Truly, having knowledge allows you to grade the graders, grade the coins, grade the dealers and grade the collectors. If you don't have knowledge you are simply putting your head in the sand.

    Someday you may learn this important lesson.
     
    Tom B, May 2, 2010
    #27 + Quote Reply
  9. Mad.Outcast

    Mad.Outcast New Member

    So,what your saying is" I should put all my faith in grading services" just like people did in the 70's & 80's right?
     
    Mad.Outcast, May 3, 2010
    #28 + Quote Reply
  10. saltysam-1

    saltysam-1 Junior Member

    Mad Outcast;
    I don't think he is saying that. He is saying you have to learn how to grade the graders and not put all your faith in any grading service or accept their views blindly.
     
    saltysam-1, May 3, 2010
    #29 + Quote Reply
  11. AdamL

    AdamL Well-Known Member

    You don't have edited, but I actually agree with you. Its all about knowledge.
    What I mean when I say I question grading the graders is that I'm afraid of grades like 65.723996 or whatever. Like the writer in the original post is predicting.
     
    AdamL, May 3, 2010
    #30 + Quote Reply
  12. Tom B

    Tom B TomB Everywhere Else

    I guess we are on the same page then and that is nice to read. One of the great potential problems with these message boards is the inability to interpret the text in a manner that one might interpret the spoken word. Again, I am glad we agree that knowledge is quite important and that the increased parsing of grades might be folly.
     
    Tom B, May 3, 2010
    #31 + Quote Reply
  13. zekeguzz

    zekeguzz lmc freak

    Ya know ever since getting into this hobby which I love, I heard many differences of opinions on the topic the particular threads are about.
    This one is no different except it's got me tied up in knots.
    I'm confused, in a way. Should I consider CAC the " Last Word " with its sticker of approval on coins? Or is it just another group of experienced
    graders saying the TPGs are not being objective enough to be able to agree with each other and/or have their own " standards " they want to
    grade coins by. Also what grabs me is what was stated that the company, be it PCGS, ANACS, or NGC, has the final say on the grade of a coin and not the graders who work for them. That seemed to be totally
    against what each states as " the most honest grading company".
    Yet there can be good arguments for that type of policy.
    SO what does it all boil down to? I think CAC might be useful as an " ombudsman "(?) of the industry in cases of dispute. Even though they are self appointed. If you strongly diagree with you coin's grade you have one more place to go, ah to pay for. I assume no refunds are ever given for misgrading. Am I all wet or did I state something someone else agrees with?
     
    zekeguzz, May 3, 2010
    #32 + Quote Reply
  14. AdamL

    AdamL Well-Known Member

    Well, my first post on the topic was kind of vague, so I guess I left my idea on the issue kind of open to interpretation. No worries.
     
    AdamL, May 3, 2010
    #33 + Quote Reply
  15. The Purveyor

    The Purveyor US Coins

    Great rant. I was at a show 2 weekends ago looking for an arrows and rays half. I narrowed it down to 2; one was an ANACS AU53 in one of the old holders and one was a PCGS AU58 OGH. The 53 was far and away the better coin and was an O mint to boot. The 58 met my type set 'AU58 or better' minimum requirement but I said screw it and bought the 53. Saved $450 and got the better coin.
     
    The Purveyor, May 4, 2010
    #34 + Quote Reply
  16. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Just to make sure you understand what I meant by that let me expand a bit further. It's not that the TPG overrules or changes the grade that the graders decide on. It's that the TPG dictates from the get go what standards the graders have to use when grading coins.

    For example, say you have 2 graders working for company A. Based on company A's standards they grade a given a coin MS64.

    A year later, both of those same graders are now working for compnay B. The exact same coin is submitted to company B for a cross-over grade. And the same two graders are given the coin to grade. But using company B's standards they now grade the coin MS62. The reverse happens as well. The coin might be graded 62 the first time and 64 the second time.

    It's the exact same coin, it's the exact same 2 graders - but it gets two vastly different grades. The only difference is the standards that each company dictates that the graders use.

    And it goes beyond that. Again the same 2 graders working for company A grade a coin MS63. Later, those same two graders working for company B body-bag the same exact coin as being harshly cleaned.

    This is not imagination nor is it hypothetical conjecture. Instances like those I have described have been documented, proved beyond any doubt. It happens !
     
    GDJMSP, May 4, 2010
    #35 + Quote Reply
  17. Tom B

    Tom B TomB Everywhere Else

    Another way to write this is to state that grading standards are proprietary and if you are employed by a grading company you then adhere to their proprietary standards.
     
    Tom B, May 4, 2010
    #36 + Quote Reply
  18. zekeguzz

    zekeguzz lmc freak

    I understand all that you've stated and after mulling it over I guess it is the best way to go. Conformity over confusion might fit. I can picture in my mind what probably goes on in some meetings where two or more graders disagree with each others final grade of the same coin/s. Without company guidelines (let's call them) nothing would get settled. I bet its has happened many times. Wish I was a fly on the wall during those meetings.
     
    zekeguzz, May 5, 2010
    #37 + Quote Reply
  19. zekeguzz

    zekeguzz lmc freak

    Let me ask this question. Say you have a potential buyer for your slabbed AU-55 1909-S VDB. But he wants to have it CAC'ed before he makes his decision. If he says he will pay for that process, what would your answer be?
     
    zekeguzz, May 5, 2010
    #38 + Quote Reply
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