If this Morgan toner had straight graded what do you think it would be worth?

Not my coin, just generally curious, it appears to have some very nice colors, if it had straight graded what do you think it would be worth?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/125599754692?

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

If that is artificial toning then god help us all, there's no hope. Everything about that coin looks right, from the limited information I have in those pictures.

 

Usually I agree with Physics-fan, but I have to agree with NGC, at least on the left ( frontal) area's color. $3500+ maybe. Jim

 

If it had straight graded, if would have been at least a $5,000 coin. I think it is not AT. I have owned straight graded coins that looked a lot like that one.

 

Why is this coin a Details coin ? It's not the (artificial) toning ?

 

Well, the label on the slab literally says "Artificial Toning." So that's why NGC gave it details.

I just don't really agree that its AT. I think its genuine. The hallmarks that I look for in natural toning are all there. And if the doctors have figured out how to fake all of those hallmarks that convincingly... what's even the point anymore?

 

Thanks, PF, missed that.

Are there special ways to tell artificial from natural toning ? Aside from the more spectacular the toning, the more likely it is artificial ?

Great questions.

 

No, spectacular does not mean artificial

The key things I look for when determining natural toning:
1. Pull-Away toning.
2. Elevation Chromatics.
3. Color progression.
4. Artefacts/imperfections in the toning.

This coin checks all the boxes. (and, each of those items could be a series of threads. Take a quick search or google to find out more)

 

They details graded it for AT. Otherwise, it probably would have come in as a 63. I disagree on the AT. I think it is market acceptable toning.

 

I still don't think it's AT or cleaned. NGC and PCGS just don't like the coin but there is nothing obviously wrong about it. Some have told me they see a small wipe on the reverse but I have not been able to clearly identify it (have a guess but if it is what I think, then I've seen worse straight grade).

If it was a straight grade, I would guess the price would start at several thousand dollars. And in the right auction, it could go for moon money if a few people chasing a tough date/mintmark combo for color really wanted it. I could also see it grading for someone but someone won't be me (one attempt at NGC and one at PCGS is enough fees spent).

 

If no one has said it that coin was dipped before the color it has was added. IMO
There is an unusual silver tone to the coin.
It needs a skin.

 

I don't see anything like that. Dipped and retoned has a different look than this Morgan.

 

I won't argue, that it is a perty coin.
But if it is mislabeled and is an altered surfaces, Or simply cleaned, there is still an oddness to the colors/shade. IMO

 

Many people believe there are. There are lots of cases of artificial toning that can be distinguished from natural toning, even by people as clueless as me. But some people believe that all AT can be detected and distinguished from NT. I'm deeply skeptical.

Most people believe that a thin layer of silver sulfide deposited intentionally is bad and a thin layer of silver sulfide deposited unintentionally is good, even if the layers are physically and chemically indistinguishable. To support that belief, they have faith that they (or someone) can always tell the two apart.

I think it's all very silly. Toning is post-mint damage, whether it's done accidentally over decades or intentionally in seconds. Some of it is quite beautiful, and worthy of collecting. But this religious conviction that "artificial toning" is and always will be inferior to "natural toning" is, well, silly. Atoms are atoms, and molecules are molecules, and we've already got plenty of artificial processes that can lay down thin films more precisely and repeatably than any "natural" process. If people aren't already using them to make toners that "pass", they soon will.

 

I think there is something that just makes the TPGs hesitate. It's not clearly AT (I won't say it's 100% NT, but I would certainly call it market acceptable) and it's not clearly cleaned. If straight graded, it would likely be among the best (if not the best) toned Morgan for this date/mintmark combo, so that might play a role in not giving the coin the benefit of doubt.

 

They did have the coin in hand.
Maybe you are right. Never looked into the Value, and hence not giving it a strait grade, I would hate to see NGC playing the favorites game.

 

The value isn't in the date; it is only a slightly better date. It is in the color. They just don't show up like this. You basically have 81-S color on a 90-S.
I'd hate to see it was a game as well by the TPGs, but nothing would surprise me. I know I'm not spending any more grading fees on it and would rather move it (at my value) or keep it as-is (if my value is not met).

 

Why do silver coins (Morgans) even create those rainbow colors ?

HOW do they create them ? Air...oxygen....the silver surface...what ?

 

The instant I looked at that coin, it shouted AT. If you like it, go ahead and buy it. Since it’s been graded AT, you should get it at a discount, but obviously, the current seller is still “taking shots.” EBay is a place to take shots to see if you will catch a fish.

Every toner is unique, and it’s hard to put a number on it. I have never been into that market do I’m not the source for that information.

One last thought about this offering is that aside from the close-up picture of the obverse, the photography is terrible. That is often not a good sign, especially when they got the first photo right.

 

It usually comes from long term storage in the canvas bags that held Morgan dollars for decades. Most of the coins were on the inside away from the air and did not tone. A lucky few were against the cloth, and under the right conditions, acquired toning. Whether or not is was attractive was the luck of the draw. Since it was almost always limited to the side that faced the cloth, only one side was toned.

Sometimes you see two sided toners. Those coins are rare. They might be the product of a dip and envelope storage where everything miraculously turned out perfect.

Why Morgan dollars? They were the coins that were minted in huge quantities and mostly never used. Unlike the Peace Dollars they were stored for decades in the bags. Other coins can be toners too, but most of them went into circulation and did not share in the unique Morgan dollar history.

Many older, undipped Proof coins are tones. They were stored in the mint issued tissue paper which caused them to tone.